Stock Escape vs AM Solar for Electrical

[DT6]

This is one of those posts where I'm pretty sure I've made up my mind, but am posting in case there is something I'm missing and to provide some general information to others who may find it useful.

The topic is choosing the Lithium battery package from Escape vs. having AM Solar do most of it as an aftermarket for a new 21C we have on order. We currently have a 19 and back in 2019 Lithium was not an option, so we got one solar panel and the two 6V 225Ah battery configuration which so far has met our needs. But with a new purchase Lithium seems like a no-brainer.

Escape has a base Lithium package for about $5K. I inquired if I could have them just run the wiring if I decided to have AM Solar complete the battery, solar panel, etc. and they said they can. When I called AM Solar they said Escape was pretty good at putting the wires where they say they do (e.g. they don't have to fish around to find them when they drill an access hole to mount the solar panels.

I inquired to AM Solar because they have such a great reputation and they were super to work with when getting the bid. However the AM Solar bid is over $13K (and that is for their mid-grade gear, their "cadillac" bid which was slightly better hardware was over $15K).

When I started this I was willing to go to maybe $2K or $3K more than the $5K for what Escape offers if it meant a much better system, but 3x the cost seems high and likely not worth it for us. When I talked to AM Solar about it, they believed most of the difference was labor for an after-market install.

While the AM Solar guys are great to work with, I just can't see a reason to spend an extra 8 to 10 thousand dollars, or am I missing something? BTW I'm not great at doing electrical except wiring a simple socket. I've got a degree in math, but when you start talking Ohms my eyes glaze over!

If nothing else, the bid sheet may help others.

Thanks!

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by DT6

This is one of those posts where I'm pretty sure I've made up my mind, but am posting in case there is something I'm missing and to provide some general information to others who may find it useful.

The topic is choosing the Lithium battery package from Escape vs. having AM Solar do most of it as an aftermarket for a new 21C we have on order. We currently have a 19 and back in 2019 Lithium was not an option, so we got one solar panel and the two 6V 225Ah battery configuration which so far has met our needs. But with a new purchase Lithium seems like a no-brainer.

Escape has a base Lithium package for about $5K. I inquired if I could have them just run the wiring if I decided to have AM Solar complete the battery, solar panel, etc. and they said they can. When I called AM Solar they said Escape was pretty good at putting the wires where they say they do (e.g. they don't have to fish around to find them when they drill an access hole to mount the solar panels.

I inquired to AM Solar because they have such a great reputation and they were super to work with when getting the bid. However the AM Solar bid is over $13K (and that is for their mid-grade gear, their "cadillac" bid which was slightly better hardware was over $15K).

When I started this I was willing to go to maybe $2K or $3K more than the $5K for what Escape offers if it meant a much better system, but 3x the cost seems high and likely not worth it for us. When I talked to AM Solar about it, they believed most of the difference was labor for an after-market install.

While the AM Solar guys are great to work with, I just can't see a reason to spend an extra 8 to 10 thousand dollars, or am I missing something? BTW I'm not great at doing electrical except wiring a simple socket. I've got a degree in math, but when you start talking Ohms my eyes glaze over!

If nothing else, the bid sheet may help others.

Thanks!

D.
I recently designed and installed my own 400AH lithium battery system and 2000W combination inverter/charger and worked with AM Solar for many parts. They are top notch for sure. When I went through your quote I don't think you are apples-to-apples so I'd like to point out a few things. Not sure it's enough to tip the scale but at least it might be a more fair comparison as you evaluate.
Batteries:
-AM Solar quote assumes relocation of batteries - is that definitely the case? That's a lot of labor. Not sure of your planned use but LifeBlue batteries have a low temp version with internal heater for a little bit more $$ if that saves you from the labor of relocating (i.e. front box vs. inside)
-The LifeBlue batteries are much better than the GoPower Sun Cycle batteries Escape currently supplies. Lithium batteries in general are very expensive per amp-hour but many of us are being swayed by the benefits. Several of us have installed the Bestgo 400AH unit for space and weight savings and doubling the amp-hrs at about the same cost as 200AH of lithium from other manufacturers. Not sure if AM Solar would entertain installing one for you. Or the 200AH version available for $1330.
-AM Solar includes a Victron BMV-712 battery monitor which you will not have with the Escape provided system (basic KIB or SeeLevel monitor doesn't count). To save money you could consider having AM Solar remove this if you stick with the LifeBlue batteries since they have SmartConnect with all battery information available directly via a smartphone app. AM Solar only includes the Victron for cumulative state of charge of a multiple battery bank and other fancy integration purposes.

Solar panels:
-AM Solar is quoting Zamp Obsidian panels which are USA made right in your home state of Oregon and probably some of the best out there (but very costly per watt). These are much better quality than the basic GoPower panels provided by Escape and much slimmer. You can bet AM Solar's mounting methods are much better too. You could explore less costly panels with AM Solar to reduce cost. Zamp's traditional panels are good too.
-AM Solar quote has a 230W portable solar panel also included for $1,150. This would not be included from Escape. (On edit I see you would need the portable to compete with the installed 380W from Escape with two panels unless AM Solar can do more on the roof)

Inverter/Charger/Transfer Switch:
AM Solar is quoting on the Victron Multi-Plus 2000VA unit. This is a 2000W inverter with full AC pass-through, 80A charger and built-in transfer switch. This is much better than the combination of the GoPower GP-ISW1500W inverter, WFCO T-30 transfer switch and "lithium" 55A charger built into the WFCO 8955LiS power center. Much, much better. Better lithium charging profile, faster charging, more inverter capacity, faster switching of transfer switch, etc. Might be overkill for your needs though. You could ask for a price if they install something with similar capability but less costly like the 2000W Xantrex Freedom XC. This is what I have and love it. With the full pass through kit you would probably be around half the cost of the Victron.

DC-DC charger:
Escape includes a Victron Orion 12-12/18 charger on the tow vehicle charge line for alternator protection and proper charging of lithium battery while underway. Tow vehicle charging is disabled in the AM Solar quote.

Easy Start
-Are you planning to try to run your air conditioner off the inverter? If not there is no reason to put an Easy Start on the A/C unless you also need it to help you run off a small generator.

Since you said one solar panel and dual 6V batteries currently meets your needs this may all be overkill but my point with all of the above is that you may be able to bring the cost down of the AM Solar system without compromising capability to a point you feel it is worth it. With just the material recommendations/deletions I made above you are around $10K with some significant labor savings to still be accounted for as well. Without question the materials used and quality of the installation by AM Solar will be absolutely first class. It really all depends on what you really want/need and are willing to pay for. A bit of a different equation for me because it was all my own labor and I wanted to conquer the challenge of running my mini-split A/C off of battery.

Hope this helps.

[Centex]

All great points and explanation by Dave (rubicon327)

Here's my quick evaluation with no conclusion drawn as to the 'relative value' for you. While Dave makes several valid points toward chipping down the AMS cost, and benefits of some of the components in comparison to what ETI offers, I'd have trouble justifying the AMS price premium all things considered. But YMMV.

Aftermarket labor, albeit likely very competent in the case of AMS, is just a bear of a harsh reality; retrofitting work takes time, quality work costs $, and it adds up in a hurry. I doubt any 'better' aftermarket alternative for the ETI offering can be implemented at a competitive cost absent 'free' DIY labor.

Relying on setup (and take-down) of a portable array for over half of one's PV charging capacity is a highly personal matter to balance in terms of pros and cons, IMO. For me that's huge 'con', but YMMV. I certainly understand the 'pro' when in a shaded-trailer or low-sun angle situation.

Happy Shopping!

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Centex

Aftermarket labor, albeit likely very competent in the case of AMS, is just a bear of a harsh reality; retrofitting work takes time, quality work costs $, and it adds up in a hurry. I doubt any 'better' aftermarket alternative for the ETI offering can be implemented at a competitive cost absent 'free' DIY labor.

Agreed.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by DT6

We currently have a 19 and back in 2019 Lithium was not an option, so we got one solar panel and the two 6V 225Ah battery configuration which so far has met our needs. But with a new purchase Lithium seems like a no-brainer.


Thanks!

Why is it a no-brainer when the current setup meets your needs? Are you going compressor refrigerator?

There is a tendency when doing a build sheet to throw in the kitchen sink. Having owned one previously as you now do we chose our options based on what we needed- period. Our first set of Interstate dual 6V batteries lasted great for 7 years. Replaced them a year ago for $200 at Costco. Our single solar panel keeps those batteries full by noon all the time, and stopped carrying the portable Renogy suitcase.

Rubicon is probably going to power his Mini-split AC with his 400 AH battery pack and more power(literally) to him! However this is like the flavor of the month deal and besides the upfront costs and potential concerns(aka needing voltage regulators for a bunch of stuff now)- these lithium batteries aren't bullet-proof and don't last forever. So when they ultimately need to be replaced there goes another- well probably 8-10X Interstate GC2's.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Why is it a no-brainer when the current setup meets your needs? Are you going compressor refrigerator?

There is a tendency when doing a build sheet to throw in the kitchen sink. Having owned one previously as you now do we chose our options based on what we needed- period. Our first set of Interstate dual 6V batteries lasted great for 7 years. Replaced them a year ago for $200 at Costco. Our single solar panel keeps those batteries full by noon all the time, and stopped carrying the portable Renogy suitcase.

Rubicon is probably going to power his Mini-split AC with his 400 AH battery pack and more power(literally) to him! However this is like the flavor of the month deal and besides the upfront costs and potential concerns(aka needing voltage regulators for a bunch of stuff now)- these lithium batteries aren't bullet-proof and don't last forever. So when they ultimately need to be replaced there goes another- well probably 8-10X Interstate GC2's.

Completely agree with choosing options that fit your needs. Most users are fine with the standard non-lithium system and single solar panel. Personally I wouldn't have done a large lithium pack unless I was adding the inverter to run the mini-split and had future thoughts of a compressor fridge if the Dometic dies. We were fine with dual 6V Interstates on the Escape and a single group 27 battery on a Scamp for many years. Would probably have just upgraded to AGM batteries (since they were moved inside and off-gassing was an issue). If I was DT6 I might consider a middle ground where Escape installs their basic system and include pre-wire for solar but let AMS do the actual solar. Personally I do not like how Escape mounts their panels and the failures I have seen.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Why is it a no-brainer when the current setup meets your needs? Are you going compressor refrigerator?

There is a tendency when doing a build sheet to throw in the kitchen sink. Having owned one previously as you now do we chose our options based on what we needed- period. Our first set of Interstate dual 6V batteries lasted great for 7 years. Replaced them a year ago for $200 at Costco. Our single solar panel keeps those batteries full by noon all the time, and stopped carrying the portable Renogy suitcase.

Rubicon is probably going to power his Mini-split AC with his 400 AH battery pack and more power(literally) to him! However this is like the flavor of the month deal and besides the upfront costs and potential concerns(aka needing voltage regulators for a bunch of stuff now)- these lithium batteries aren't bullet-proof and don't last forever. So when they ultimately need to be replaced there goes another- well probably 8-10X Interstate GC2's.

I have totally changed my advice on electrical. Up until I added 300 watts to the roof of our 5.0 my advice was to get the biggest batteries you could afford.

We just spent the last three months in Arizona/Utah and last summer/fall a couple of times camping underneath trees. With 465 theoretical watts we saw 80-100 watts underneath the trees and had no problem going a week without getting the portable out. According to our Victron 712 the biggest draw we've had is 62 ah's, and that was over three days without sun. We don't have a microwave, but use our 1500 watt inverter to make toast every morning.

Contrary to what some members who have no experience claimed with our SiO2 batteries work and charge easily. With the 465 roof watts we're out of bulk by 9 am (standard time) every day. Even our 170 watt panel could fully charge the batteries after a few days of minimal sun. For those of us who don't need a compressor fridge (we don't) or AC (we've yet to camp with AC running) I feel lithium's and their needed peripherals are just a waste of money.

With hindsight, when our SiO2 batteries fail, we'll just purchase a pair of flooded. My advice to others now is, buy the most watts you can install on the roof first.

As always, YMMV.

Enjoy,

Perry