WFCO 8955-LIS converter woes

[kavm]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

First and third: Hookup to the shore power and inverter-generator.

Thank you! We have used the first - shore power - successfully several times. So, hoping that the fuse sizing issue will not impact us…

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by kavm

Thank you! We have used the first - shore power - successfully several times. So, hoping that the fuse sizing issue will not impact us…

From the reminder from Jon Vermilye that lithium batteries pull full current at less than a 85% charge, it's inevitable that you will experience the 30 amp breaker tripping at some point. Jon is very knowledgeable about solar and lithium batteries - if he says it's a problem then you can take that to the bank.

Maybe Mark J will bless us with a "how to" when he gets his wiring fixed for his trailer so others can follow his example.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

From the reminder from Jon Vermilye that lithium batteries pull full current at less than a 85% charge, it's inevitable that you will experience the 30 amp breaker tripping at some point. Jon is very knowledgeable about solar and lithium batteries - if he says it's a problem then you can take that to the bank.

Maybe Mark J will bless us with a "how to" when he gets his wiring fixed for his trailer so others can follow his example.

Thank you! That’s a good plan!

[Mark J]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Can you label what each wire feeds on the photo? This will help those trying to troubleshoot.

I finally got a chance to trace out the wires. Here’s what is connected at the pair of 30A breakers. The one labeled “to WFCO panel” was the one with the loose nut when we picked up the trailer. Probably why the lights were flickering and also why the breakers weren’t resetting until I tightened it. Of course we weren’t getting full charge from the converter at that point, either.

I noticed all the lugs attached to these breakers are too big for the studs. Pretty sloppy. Also, no fuse on the 8 AWG wire coming from the DC/DC charger. It just connects to side going to the battery. Victron says it should be a 6 AWG cable with a 60A fuse. Escape obviously doesn’t read the manuals.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Mark J

I finally got a chance to trace out the wires. Here’s what is connected at the pair of 30A breakers. The one labeled “to WFCO panel” was the one with the loose nut when we picked up the trailer. Probably why the lights were flickering and also why the breakers weren’t resetting until I tightened it. Of course we weren’t getting full charge from the converter at that point, either.

I noticed all the lugs attached to these breakers are too big for the studs. Pretty sloppy. Also, no fuse on the 8 AWG wire coming from the DC/DC charger. It just connects to side going to the battery. Victron says it should be a 6 AWG cable with a 60A fuse. Escape obviously doesn’t read the manuals.

So the WFCO that can put out 55 amps is limited by a 30 amp thermal breaker, the required 60 amp fuse on the battery is missing, the wiring terminals are the wrong size, and the wire sizes are smaller than needed. Does that pretty much cover it?

Unless you want to rewire major portions of your trailer like I have, don't look at any more wiring. You would not be happy with what you find. But being a retired electrical engineer, I'm may be pickier than most.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Mark J

I finally got a chance to trace out the wires. Here’s what is connected at the pair of 30A breakers. The one labeled “to WFCO panel” was the one with the loose nut when we picked up the trailer. Probably why the lights were flickering and also why the breakers weren’t resetting until I tightened it. Of course we weren’t getting full charge from the converter at that point, either.

I noticed all the lugs attached to these breakers are too big for the studs. Pretty sloppy. Also, no fuse on the 8 AWG wire coming from the DC/DC charger. It just connects to side going to the battery. Victron says it should be a 6 AWG cable with a 60A fuse. Escape obviously doesn’t read the manuals.

Did you move the WFCO panel connection over onto the other stud to bypass the auto reset breaker? If so, did it solve your problem?

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Mark J

I finally got a chance to trace out the wires. Here’s what is connected at the pair of 30A breakers. The one labeled “to WFCO panel” was the one with the loose nut when we picked up the trailer. Probably why the lights were flickering and also why the breakers weren’t resetting until I tightened it. Of course we weren’t getting full charge from the converter at that point, either.

I noticed all the lugs attached to these breakers are too big for the studs. Pretty sloppy. Also, no fuse on the 8 AWG wire coming from the DC/DC charger. It just connects to side going to the battery. Victron says it should be a 6 AWG cable with a 60A fuse. Escape obviously doesn’t read the manuals.

Plus no shrink wrap on the crimps

[Mark J]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Did you move the WFCO panel connection over onto the other stud to bypass the auto reset breaker? If so, did it solve your problem?

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Did you move the WFCO panel connection over onto the other stud to bypass the auto reset breaker? If so, did it solve your problem?

Now that I know where all the wires come from, I can try that little test. I guess I don’t really expect to learn much with the batteries being kept at 100% by the solar at the moment. I’ve got some supplies on order to rewire this part of the system to replace those 30A breakers and then plan to go camping with it. If the converter still acts up, it’ll be replaced by either a Progressive Dynamics unit, or I may just bite the bullet and go for a 2000W inverter/charger and be done with it.

Another fusing issue I want to deal with, as Tom mentioned, there should be a fuse right off the battery positive before it feeds power to anything else. The battery wire in the photo is 8 AWG and about 2 feet long, unfused, up to the 30A thermal breaker. There is an AMG 200A fuse connected directly to the battery post underneath the 8 AWG that feeds a separate 2 AWG wire to the inverter. That doesn’t seem like a reliable installation for the rough roads we expect to be driving on. Go Power also stipulates a class T fuse before the inverter and even furnishes those with their inverter install kits https://gpelectric.com/products/inve...-install-kits/. So I will be fixing all that and getting a proper fuse in there.

I’ll post improvements after they have been completed. Thanks for everyone’s input thus far!

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Mark J

Now that I know where all the wires come from, I can try that little test. I guess I don’t really expect to learn much with the batteries being kept at 100% by the solar at the moment.

If you run your microwave on the inverter for a little while I'm sure you can draw your battery down enough for the WFCO charger to engage once you plug in to shore power.

Originally Posted by Mark J

I’ve got some supplies on order to rewire this part of the system to replace those 30A breakers and then plan to go camping with it. If the converter still acts up, it’ll be replaced by either a Progressive Dynamics unit, or I may just bite the bullet and go for a 2000W inverter/charger and be done with it.

My evolution was a Progressive Dynamics main board upgrade, then base wiring upgrades, then a major overhaul adding 400AH lithium, Xantrex Freedom XC inverter/charger, Victron Orion DC-DC charger on tow vehicle charge line and a Victron BMV-712 Smart battery monitor. Your base wiring in a newer trailer should be better than the older trailers based on my experience. That said, this doesn't mean there aren't still some non-ideal aspects of the current system installations.

Originally Posted by Mark J

There is an ANL 200A fuse connected directly to the battery post underneath the 8 AWG that feeds a separate 2 AWG wire to the inverter. That doesn’t seem like a reliable installation for the rough roads we expect to be driving on. Go Power also stipulates a class T fuse before the inverter and even furnishes those with their inverter install kits https://gpelectric.com/products/inve...-install-kits/. So I will be fixing all that and getting a proper fuse in there.

I just posted this in another thread related to fusing. Definitely recommend the Class T fuse on the inverter power. That is what AM Solar provides in all of their kits.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post395553

Originally Posted by Mark J

I’ll post improvements after they have been completed. Thanks for everyone’s input thus far!

If you need any help along the way don't hesitate to ask. There are some very knowledgeable members. One recommendation that I have is to take tdf-texas' schematic and trace out the main wiring in your trailer. With that mark-up or edited schematic it makes it much easier for someone to help you and will assist you in any future troubleshooting.

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

So the WFCO that can put out 55 amps is limited by a 30 amp thermal breaker, the required 60 amp fuse on the battery is missing, the wiring terminals are the wrong size, and the wire sizes are smaller than needed. Does that pretty much cover it?

Unless you want to rewire major portions of your trailer like I have, don't look at any more wiring. You would not be happy with what you find. But being a retired electrical engineer, I'm may be pickier than most.

Approaching $50k for a "loaded" new trailer with these types of issues...........?


Not to mention some of the plumbing related..........

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

Approaching $50k for a "loaded" new trailer with these types of issues...........?


Not to mention some of the plumbing related..........

Yup. I think you should cancel your order.

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Yup. I think you should cancel your order.

Says the guy with 16,000 posts on here.............


Might just do that.......................we shall see.


Options are always a good thing.



A Cirrus truck camper and a dually, or an older Foretravel or BB Wanderlodge (80's FC) just might be the ticket.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

Says the guy with 16,000 posts on here.............


Might just do that.......................we shall see.

Just want you to avoid disappointment.

[Mark J]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

If you need any help along the way don't hesitate to ask. There are some very knowledgeable members. One recommendation that I have is to take tdf-texas' schematic and trace out the main wiring in your trailer. With that mark-up or edited schematic it makes it much easier for someone to help you and will assist you in any future troubleshooting.

Thanks, I will be sure to ask if I run into things I can't work out. And appreciate TDF-Texas' schematic as a good place to start.

At first I was a bit overwhelmed by how the trailer was wired, as my previous camper had only a DC side and no converter or inverter. But I'm starting figure it out.

[Mark J]

Actually, I do have a couple questions for the electrical experts. Our trailer was wired with two separate 8 awg ground wires going to two different places of the frame. One comes off the back of the WFCO panel and shares the stud with about 7 more black wires (haven’t traced them all out). The other chassis ground is wired directly to the ground terminal on the inverter.

1) I thought there should only be one chassis ground in the system?

2) Also, when rewiring this mess, I thought it might be a good idea to enlarge the size of the chassis ground wire to 2/0 to match the size inverter cables I plan to install.

Thoughts?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Mark J

Our trailer was wired with two separate 8 awg ground wires going to two different places of the frame. One comes off the back of the WFCO panel and shares the stud with about 7 more black wires (haven’t traced them all out). The other chassis ground is wired directly to the ground terminal on the inverter.

1) I thought there should only be one chassis ground in the system?

If this is the protective chassis ground of the inverter - not the negative input power cable - then it doesn't carry any current in normal operation and I don't think there's any concern with "ground loops", which are the reason for avoiding multiple ground connections.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Mark J

Actually, I do have a couple questions for the electrical experts. Our trailer was wired with two separate 8 awg ground wires going to two different places of the frame. One comes off the back of the WFCO panel and shares the stud with about 7 more black wires (haven’t traced them all out). The other chassis ground is wired directly to the ground terminal on the inverter.

1) I thought there should only be one chassis ground in the system?

2) Also, when rewiring this mess, I thought it might be a good idea to enlarge the size of the chassis ground wire to 2/0 to match the size inverter cables I plan to install.

Thoughts?

There are three ground connections as another ground connection is at the 7-pin terminal box up near the front of the trailer.

That stud on the back of the WFCO is the common negative return for all the DC devices in the trailer (except brake / turn lights and brakes which return thru the 7-pin/frame ground). The wires on that stud are 12v negative return wires. The ground wire on that stud does two duties: one is an electrical safety ground for the WFCO and the second is to supply a return path the the emergency brake circuit. That ground wire needs to stay.

The inverter is grounded to the frame for electrical safety and is not part of the DC ground path. This wire also needs to stay.

The third ground connection is in the 7-pin terminal box. When you apply brakes, turn on running lights, or brake lights, the 12v power is coming from the tow vehicle - not the trailer and the ground return is back to the tow vehicle as well. The ground in the 7-pin terminal box needs to be there as well.

Since the tow vehicle powered stuff and the emergency brake are the only devices that use the ground as a current carrying "wire", there is not much current going through the ground connections. So no, a 2/0 ground wire is not needed - the 10 gauge ground wire is sufficient.

Now back to question 1. Since one ground is 120 electrical and is connected to one ground, it's good. The stud on the back of the WFCO is the only ground connection for the trailer 12v stuff so it's good. The ground at the 7-pin is for the tow vehicle stuff so it's good. It's better if all of them are tied to a single ground but in this case, the three grounds are for three different services and don't create a ground loop situation.

[Mark J]

Great info, thanks!

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Just want you to avoid disappointment.

So, how about holding a manufacture to some level of "standards", rather than your surrendering type comments?




Believe the best approach for that will be a conversation / documentation with ETI regarding appropriate wiring / fuses for a lithium setup.......which I will have prior to finalization of my commitment.



They have already stated that there are no vent stack terminations inside the shell..........Hmmmmmm..........so where does that kitchen sink have a vent on the 21NE?

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

So, how about holding a manufacture to some level of "standards", rather than your surrendering type comments?




Believe the best approach for that will be a conversation / documentation with ETI regarding appropriate wiring / fuses for a lithium setup.......which I will have prior to finalization of my commitment.



They have already stated that there are no vent stack terminations inside the shell..........Hmmmmmm..........so where does that kitchen sink have a vent on the 21NE?

We're off subject but...

A sink installed without a vent and configured as a S trap has been illegal in the United States for decades.

https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Bl...a-problem.html

Look under your kitchen sink and the pic in the article - does that look familiar?