WFCO 8955-LIS converter woes

[John in Santa Cruz]

the grey tank is vented, and as the line from the sink trap is above the level of the tank, that vent is adequate for both the bathroom and kitchen sinks in my 21.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

the grey tank is vented, and as the line from the sink trap is above the level of the tank, that vent is adequate for both the bathroom and kitchen sinks in my 21.

John, both the bathroom sink and the kitchen sink as installed in the 21 do not meet US plumbing codes.

The bathroom sink is vented using an air admittance valve that is installed within the walls of the shower enclosure. Codes say if a Air Admittance Valve is installed, it must be accessable.

The kitchen sink does not have a vent and the drain is installed as a S trap which has been illegal in the US for decades.

It's not that they are adequate - it's that they are illegal by the plumbing codes.

I've said enough about plumbing in an electrical thread - Please, let's move on.

[John in Santa Cruz]

AFAIK, building codes do not apply to trailers or RVs.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

AFAIK, building codes do not apply to trailers or RVs.

NFPA 1192 Standard on Recreational Vehicles

7.4.4.4 Full “S” traps, bell traps, drum traps, and crown*vented traps shall be prohibited.

7.6.6 AntiSiphon Trap Vent Devices. An antisiphon trap vent device shall be permitted to be used only as a secondary vent in accordance with the following:
(7) The device shall be installed in an accessible location that permits a free flow of air.

[MVA]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

NFPA 1192 Standard on Recreational Vehicles

7.4.4.4 Full “S” traps, bell traps, drum traps, and crown*vented traps shall be prohibited.

7.4.4.5 A trap that depends for its seal upon concealed interior partitions shall not be used except for listed flexible drain systems.

TDF - good points. On my E19, the bathroom air admittance valve is accessible inside the furnace enclosure cabinet. I suspect the comments I have seen online about "smells" may be a failed air admittance valve.

[gbaglo]

If you missed me, I've been listening to my grandson whine about his hurt arm.

[Illinois Joe]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

From the reminder from Jon Vermilye that lithium batteries pull full current at less than a 85% charge, it's inevitable that you will experience the 30 amp breaker tripping at some point. Jon is very knowledgeable about solar and lithium batteries - if he says it's a problem then you can take that to the bank.

Maybe Mark J will bless us with a "how to" when he gets his wiring fixed for his trailer so others can follow his example.

Following this thread. I have 2 lithium batteries and one 190w solar on back of 21NE. So far no problems but not much load on my batteries to drain. Getting more disappointed with Escape design as I learn. They did such a nice video explaining how they were getting together with GoPower to get lithium components right. Now I'm learning that wiring and fusing isn't right.

[bborzell]

I have not fully discounted the possibility that the recent spate of delivery delay emails that was loosely attributed to staffing issues might well be connected to a rethink of how trailers have been and are currently being wired for solar/lithium.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Illinois Joe

Following this thread. I have 2 lithium batteries and one 190w solar on back of 21NE. So far no problems but not much load on my batteries to drain. Getting more disappointed with Escape design as I learn. They did such a nice video explaining how they were getting together with GoPower to get lithium components right. Now I'm learning that wiring and fusing isn't right.

Don't get too upset about the wiring. It takes about an hour and $50 to correct the problem - not a big deal. One six foot wire and a fuse to replace.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Don't get too upset about the wiring. It takes about an hour and $50 to correct the problem - not a big deal. One six foot wire and a fuse to replace.

And, if the WFCO lithium converter performs the same as the lead acid version, you may never have a problem. In the 2 years I traveled with lead acid batteries & the stock WFCO converter, it never produced 55 amps. Neither my 30 amp thermal circuit breaker nor the 40 amp in line fuse ever opened.

I hope someone will add a battery monitor to one of the new trailers with the lithium converter & measure what the maximum current the converter provides. WFCO is infamous for not producing it's rated amperage under any circumstances...

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

And, if the WFCO lithium converter performs the same as the lead acid version, you may never have a problem. In the 2 years I traveled with lead acid batteries & the stock WFCO converter, it never produced 55 amps. Neither my 30 amp thermal circuit breaker nor the 40 amp in line fuse ever opened.

I hope someone will add a battery monitor to one of the new trailers with the lithium converter & measure what the maximum current the converter provides. WFCO is infamous for not producing it's rated amperage under any circumstances...

A lot of newer Escape owners don't have the 40 amp fuse as Escape quit installing the 40 amp soon after our trailers were built. On the newer trailers, the only fuse, if it has one, at the battery is the 200 amp for the inverter.

If you add the battery fuse, it might as well be 60 amps.

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

A lot of newer Escape owners don't have the 40 amp fuse as Escape quit installing the 40 amp soon after our trailers were built. On the newer trailers, the only fuse, if it has one, at the battery is the 200 amp for the inverter.

If you add the battery fuse, it might as well be 60 amps.

All of this wiring/fuse begs the question of how/why ETI chooses to eliminate fuses that were previously used or reduce the gauge of wiring from what the component manufacturer believes is necessary in order to safely utilize their product.

I can’t believe that it is cost saving move as the margins are so slight between the various configurations. It leaves me with an impression that someone with electrical engineering responsibility is choosing to make decisions that vary from component manufacturer specs because they simply think that they are better informed about how ETI utilizes electrical components in their systems better than are the folks who make the electrical components.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by bborzell

It leaves me with an impression that someone with electrical engineering responsibility is choosing to make decisions that vary from component manufacturer specs because they simply think that they are better informed about how ETI utilizes electrical components in their systems better than are the folks who make the electrical components.

Component integration is always the toughest part. It was for my recent lithium battery upgrade and Xantrex inverter/charger wired to run all outlets, microwave and mini-split. You need to intimately understand each component in your system and how it will be wired to and behave with other components. Knowledge of proper wire sizing, connections and fusing is required. There is a lot to think about especially as the system offerings get more complicated. These trailers started out really simple when Escape started but now we have inverters, solar systems and lithium battery banks in the mix. I hope Escape has the electrical staff they need to keep these systems properly designed and trouble free for owners.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

A lot of newer Escape owners don't have the 40 amp fuse as Escape quit installing the 40 amp soon after our trailers were built. On the newer trailers, the only fuse, if it has one, at the battery is the 200 amp for the inverter.

So there is no fuse between the battery and the WFCO power centre in that case? That's disturbing.

Originally Posted by bborzell

All of this wiring/fuse begs the question of how/why ETI chooses to eliminate fuses that were previously used or reduce the gauge of wiring from what the component manufacturer believes is necessary in order to safely utilize their product.

I can’t believe that it is cost saving move as the margins are so slight between the various configurations. It leaves me with an impression that someone with electrical engineering responsibility is choosing to make decisions that vary from component manufacturer specs because they simply think that they are better informed about how ETI utilizes electrical components in their systems better than are the folks who make the electrical components.

But it's not just about the components. If there is a short to the frame or anything else connected to the battery negative (due to damage or accidental connection) of the wire or connections anywhere between the battery positive terminal and the fuse panel, there should be a fuse (as close as practical to the battery positive terminal) to prevent excessive current in that wire. Even a combination of devices on fused branch circuits could exceed the current capacity of that wire (from battery to power centre).

Having said that, I'm sure that there are many RVs without proper fusing of this type - it's unlike to be a uniquely Escape issue, but it's still an issue.

[Flyfisherdan]

I also own a 2017 21C and am in the process of upgrading the batteries from the stock 2 6 V Interstates to 2 12V 100AH Battle Born LifePO4. Because of switching to LifePO4 batteries, I am upgrading the factory installed WFCO 8955 converter with a Progressive Dynamics 4655L Wildkat.

After reading this thread, I am trying to determine what wiring, breakers, etc. need to be upgraded with my new setup? My basic understanding is that the factory installed 8 AWG wire from the converter to the batteries and the circuit breaker should be upgraded to 6 AWG & a 60 A breaker? Just trying to make sure I upgrade the needed components without going overboard. Anything else needed?

Thanks.

Dan

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Mark J

I’ll post improvements after they have been completed.

Mark: Wondering if you implemented your wiring upgrades and resolved the flickering light issue?

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Flyfisherdan

I also own a 2017 21C and am in the process of upgrading the batteries from the stock 2 6 V Interstates to 2 12V 100AH Battle Born LifePO4. Because of switching to LifePO4 batteries, I am upgrading the factory installed WFCO 8955 converter with a Progressive Dynamics 4655L Wildkat.

After reading this thread, I am trying to determine what wiring, breakers, etc. need to be upgraded with my new setup? My basic understanding is that the factory installed 8 AWG wire from the converter to the batteries and the circuit breaker should be upgraded to 6 AWG & a 60 A breaker? Just trying to make sure I upgrade the needed components without going overboard. Anything else needed?

Thanks.

Dan

Look at a DC to DC for the tow charging and if you really want that to be efficient, some users have run a separate wiring for that function, also some have just disabled the tow charging the lithium batteries. to avoid interaction with the tow, Escape lithium ready wiring includes the DC to DC now .

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Flyfisherdan

After reading this thread, I am trying to determine what wiring, breakers, etc. need to be upgraded with my new setup? My basic understanding is that the factory installed 8 AWG wire from the converter to the batteries and the circuit breaker should be upgraded to 6 AWG & a 60 A breaker? Just trying to make sure I upgrade the needed components without going overboard. Anything else needed?

I would check to make sure there are no undersized auto reset breakers in between the converter/charger and the battery. You can leave one wired between the tow vehicle charge line and battery but I agree with the suggestion to get a DC-DC charger on that leg to properly charge lithium when towing and protect vehicle system. We have an older trailer but there was a 30A auto reset breaker inline with the WFCO charger and Mark reported the same on his 2021 as seen in post #44 of this thread. That could present a problem with a 55A charger supplying a lithium battery. A single fuse near the battery protecting 6 AWG wiring should suffice. Several of us have used the inline Bussman Maxi fuse holder: https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-HHX-.../dp/B000CZ2Z92
Those are the basics but if you are so inclined I would study tdf’s diagram in post #45, trace your system out and implement what applies to you. If you have any questions the electrical gurus on here will usually help.

Also check integrity of crimps and tightness of all your connections including the terminations in the power center (both AC and DC).

[MVA]

Originally Posted by Flyfisherdan

I also own a 2017 21C and am in the process of upgrading the batteries from the stock 2 6 V Interstates to 2 12V 100AH Battle Born LifePO4. Because of switching to LifePO4 batteries, I am upgrading the factory installed WFCO 8955 converter with a Progressive Dynamics 4655L Wildkat.

After reading this thread, I am trying to determine what wiring, breakers, etc. need to be upgraded with my new setup? My basic understanding is that the factory installed 8 AWG wire from the converter to the batteries and the circuit breaker should be upgraded to 6 AWG & a 60 A breaker? Just trying to make sure I upgrade the needed components without going overboard. Anything else needed?

Thanks.

Dan

Dan,

There are some additional considerations when converting to a Li based battery system. One of them is the AC-DC converter as you have identified. The other major considerations are the TV charging circuit; the emergency brake wiring, and the OEM 12V DC wiring.

Couple of technical facts to keep in consideration. The BB battery has a very low internal resistance, compared to lead-acid chemistry, which allows for relatively very high charging and discharging currents. The BB battery also operate at a slightly higher voltage. These facts impact a couple of design considerations.

For the TV charging circuit, you vehicle has a Pb-acid battery and your trailer will have the BB battery which operates at a higher voltage. You can either add a DC-DC converter (see posts on forum) to charge the BB battery from the TV, or disable the charing line at either the 7-pin box or remove the TV fuse for this line. The decision of which option is based on how you plan to use your trailer.

If you add a DC-DC converter, you will need to rewire the emergency breakaway switch. Currently it should be picking up power in the 7-pin junction box on the charging line lug. See posts on the forum on this consideration.

In my opinion, the wiring in my trailer was substandard for Li battery systems. It was fine for the lower currents of lead-acid. For example, the lead-acid battery would charge at ~8 amps; my BB will charge at 45+ amps for similar SOC. The original wiring was too small for this increased current load IMO. There are lots of calculators online (e.g., https://www.renogy.com/calculators#tab_solar-cable) for sizing wire gauges but keep in mind the ampacity. For example at 55 amps (max for wildcat), 2% loss, 3 foot wiring, the recommendation is 8 awg for voltage loss. If you have solar also charging, you could exceed the NEC recommendation. For a few bucks, I went with 6 awg.

Again, there are lots of comments on the forum and some have posted their electrical schematics which are very helpful.

2 cents

[Mark J]

Originally Posted by Flyfisherdan

I also own a 2017 21C and am in the process of upgrading the batteries from the stock 2 6 V Interstates to 2 12V 100AH Battle Born LifePO4. Because of switching to LifePO4 batteries, I am upgrading the factory installed WFCO 8955 converter with a Progressive Dynamics 4655L Wildkat.

After reading this thread, I am trying to determine what wiring, breakers, etc. need to be upgraded with my new setup? My basic understanding is that the factory installed 8 AWG wire from the converter to the batteries and the circuit breaker should be upgraded to 6 AWG & a 60 A breaker? Just trying to make sure I upgrade the needed components without going overboard. Anything else needed?

Thanks.

Dan

Dan,

I upgraded the wire from the Escape-provided WFCO 8955-LIS converter to the battery with 6AWG and a 60A fuse.

Actually, I ended up rewiring most of the stuff I could see (and get to) since I found the Escape wiring to be pretty shoddy overall. I now have everything bussed through a Victron Lynx distributor and properly fused with MEGA and MIDI fuses, and have eliminated the undersized thermal breakers. No more tripping breakers while charging from the converter.

I installed a new beefier ground wire to a 1/4” bolt through the frame for solid ground connection. This, plus fixing all the loose connections I found along the way has solved my flickering lights problem as well.

Now, while charging from the WFCO, I’ve been able to measure around 50A charge current on my BMV-712 battery monitor. This is pretty close to the 55A rating of the converter. So I’m pretty happy with the setup at this point.