Why Twin 6V?

[Jim Bennett]

Really. Those power tools don't work good without something to power them, and we have advanced here in Canada beyond using power tools now. We do not have power out at our rec land.

[J Mac]

I wonder if Tim Taylor from "Home Improvement" could expand on this?

[NuthatchBC]

How difficult is it to replace the stock wiring from the batteries to the inverter? I have considered this after noticing the current wiring is a bit small in gauge from what I would prefer. We don't use any high-power-requirement appliances but I think running larger gauge wire, say #8, would be a good idea.

Doug

[Vermilye]

It depends on the size of your inverter. Typical draw on the 12V side of the inverter is at least 10X the draw on the 120V output. For example, If you have a 1000 watt inverter, the maximum output draw will be 1000 watts / 120V or 8.3 amps. Since there are losses in the inverter & you might not have a calculator handy, an easy way to do the calculation is pretending the output voltage is 100, adding some space for inverter losses. Using that, you can expect to draw 10 amps out which ends up being 100 amps in.

Even if you don't plan to "ever" load the inverter to its maximum, the wiring should be planned for it. You don't know what the future will bring & rewiring later is a pain. A wire size table such as Powerstream's is a starting point. Using the the table values for chassis wiring, it appears that a #6 wire would be adequate for 100 amp load (table quotes 101 amps), however you also have to take in the voltage drop caused by that current going through the wire. There is a calculator further down the page that lets you determine voltage drop.

For example, using the calculator for a 10' run of #6 wire, the voltage drop would be 0.813V so the input of the inverter would see 11.187V. Most inverters would shut down at this low voltage, thinking the battery was going dead. (Note - there is actually some leeway since a fully charged 12V battery is going to be at more than 12V.)

Anyway, the wire size is going to have to be increased to keep the voltage drop within reason. Xantrax recommends a minimum wire size for its 1000W inverter of #0. While that is pretty conservative, even with that size you will lose .2V heating the wiring. The important thing is to consider voltage drop in the wiring since you are working with low voltages. While 3% loss is used to calculate house wiring; that doesn't work for 12V wiring since you are starting with a lower voltage.

Sorry to go on so much about inverter wiring, but as I said, it is a pain to redo it. As to the wiring itself, I had cables made for me by GenuineDealz. While it would have been less expensive to do it myself, they have a good range of colors, can put what ever ends you want on the cable (and cover them with heat shrink) etc. I enlarged the hole in the floor the original #10 wiring ran through and resealed around the new wiring. If you have a 6V system, don't forget the jumper between batteries.

Be sure to add a catastrophic fuse as close to the battery as possible. I used a 150 amp fuse. I also wanted the ability to shut off the high power wiring into the inverter so I added a 250 amp switch.

Hope I answered all your questions.

[pkgman51]

I'm not an electrical engineer so about now I'm getting a brain cramp.
What does all this mean? A trailer needs to be re-wired to run a coffee maker? The trailer comes with several 110v. outlets. What can be safely used from those outlets? Sorry. I'm real confused.
pkgman51

[Vermilye]

An inverter is used to make 120V AC from your battery. The outlets in the trailer are only live when plugged into a campground pedestal or a generator. If you want to run 120V devices when you don't have either, an inverter is necessary. The size of the inverter (and the wire feeding it) is determined by the largest load you plan to connect to it. If you don't dry camp, there is no need for one. Hope that clears things up!

[cpaharley2008]

There are 2 circuits in your Escape, a low voltage 12v system and a household 110v system. One operates off your battery and one while plugged in at a campsite. There are devices that will allow you to convert a 12v system to operate some 110 appliances, separate from your household outlets.

[pkgman51]

Thanks. Things are becoming a bit clearer.
If one puts in an inverter to provide 110AC from a 6v DC source you need an inverter to change the voltage. Inverters come in various outputs depending on the Amps required to drive the desired device. The wires to the outlets need to be sufficient gauge to carry the load.
And then there is a crossover switch to switch the outlets from inverter supplied power to nuclear supplied power?
So, if an inverter is in the future it's best to put it in when the trailer is being put together?
Am I close?
pkgman51

[KarenH]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

There are devices that will allow you to convert a 12v system to operate some 110 appliances, separate from your household outlets.

Someone in another thread mentioned what they use. I am seldom plugged in at a campsite and I didn't need an inverter hardwired into the system, so I followed their advice and bought this:

Amazon.com: Tripp Lite PV375 Portable Auto Inverter 375W 12V DC to AC 120V 5-15R 2 Outlet: Electronics

[cpaharley2008]

Getting close, not sure about the crossover switch statement.

[gbaglo]

There are alternatives to running high-draw household appliances with an inverter.
Instead of a electric coffee maker, you can use your propane stove to heat water for a cone filter or French press. You can get a TV that will run on 12V DC or 120 AC. You can get non-powered waffle, toaster and sandwich makers for use on the propane stove or your bonfire.
Instead of an electric hair-dryer, you can sit in the sun.

[NuthatchBC]

I mis-spoke in my previous post. We don't use an inverter. We just have the CONverter. I was considering replacing the stock #10 wire with #8 and wondered how easy/hard that would be. Can I use the existing hole and simply pull the larger wire through or do I have to make a larger opening?

Doug

[barry]

Originally Posted by KarenH

Someone in another thread mentioned what they use. I am seldom plugged in at a campsite and I didn't need an inverter hardwired into the system, so I followed their advice and bought this:

Amazon.com: Tripp Lite PV375 Portable Auto Inverter 375W 12V DC to AC 120V 5-15R 2 Outlet: Electronics

I'd be very careful using that at full power plugged into the supplied 12 volt receptacle in the trailer. I would say that maximum would be 150 watts using the 12 volt receptacle and that might be pushing it depending on the length of the supply wire.

Barry

[dbailey]

Originally Posted by KarenH

...and bought this:

Amazon.com: Tripp Lite PV375 Portable Auto Inverter 375W 12V DC to AC 120V 5-15R 2 Outlet: Electronics

You've got to be careful with these units. This one, for example: 375W delivered through 12v means you need 30A. I don't care what the package says, you're not going to sustain 375W with that unit. The 12V wires in your trailer won't support it, and the wires on the unit itself won't support it. For a short use, sure, but trying to sustain 375W could be dangerous.

I use a smaller one for charging batteries and things. 100W, iirc. That's only 8A over the 12v system -- shouldn't be a problem. If I needed to push it to 200W, I'd want to confirm the trailer wiring could handle the amperage. Anything bigger than that and I want a unit wired in with adequate wiring.

So, how much wattage do you need to sustain?

[dbailey]

heh... what Barry said...

[KarenH]

Originally Posted by barry

I'd be very careful using that at full power plugged into the supplied 12 volt receptacle in the trailer. I would say that maximum would be 150 watts using the 12 volt receptacle and that might be pushing it depending on the length of the supply wire.

Barry

Thank you! I only bought it to charge up a cell phone, tablet, iPod, laptop, or e-reader, none of which I have. But one never knows what the future holds.

[hotfishtacos]

Originally Posted by dbailey

Anything bigger than that and I want a unit wired in with adequate wiring.

Exactly!

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by pkgman51

Thanks. Things are becoming a bit clearer.
If one puts in an inverter to provide 110AC from a 6v DC source you need an inverter to change the voltage. Inverters come in various outputs depending on the Amps required to drive the desired device. The wires to the outlets need to be sufficient gauge to carry the load.
And then there is a crossover switch to switch the outlets from inverter supplied power to nuclear supplied power?
So, if an inverter is in the future it's best to put it in when the trailer is being put together?
Am I close?
pkgman51

Some users wire a transfer switch so one or more circuits "switch" when the inverter is used. Others simply add a separate receptacle that is only powered when the inverter is on. It does make sense to have an inverter installed when the trailer is built - I believe Reace is currently installing them (or considering it) as an option.

Again, this isn't a necessary item, however if you dry camp and want to use 120V devices, particularly high powered ones, they are useful. If you have a large inverter you do have to consider how you are going to ''Refill" the batteries. I have the solar option from Escape and most days my batteries are back to 100% by noon. Without solar, you would need to run a generator, run the tow vehicle or plug into shore power every couple of days to recharge.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by NuthatchBC

I mis-spoke in my previous post. We don't use an inverter. We just have the CONverter. I was considering replacing the stock #10 wire with #8 and wondered how easy/hard that would be. Can I use the existing hole and simply pull the larger wire through or do I have to make a larger opening?

Doug

While there are a few technical reasons for using large wires between the batteries & your converter, for the most part the #10 wire Escape uses is OK. Going up one wire size won't provide all that much of an advantage.

This may be getting too technical, but the major reason for going to a larger wire size is to get a 3 stage converter to go into the Boost stage. A 3 stage converter has a Boost (14.4V typical) a nominal stage (13.6V typical) and a float stage (13.2V typical). For the fastest charging you want the boost stage. The problem with the boost stage is it works well until the batteries reach about 80% of full, but after that start to "boil" the batteries. Too long in the boost stage will run the batteries dry. The nominal stage is for finishing off the last 20% & normal operating conditions & the float is used when the batteries are fully charged. The converter electronics determine what stage to use.

The problem is the voltage drop caused by too small a wire size between the batteries and the converter keeps it from going into the boost stage. In the nominal stage the batteries will charge, but slowly. If you are running a generator to recharge your batteries you want to do it as quickly as possible. Typically, a #6 or larger wire is used to get the best performance out of a 40 - 60 amp converter.

Again, for the short wire run typical in a small fiberglass trailer and the smaller 30 amp converter usually used, #10 wire is OK unless you do a lot of dry camping & need to recharge with a generator running for a short time.

A very useful website for 12 v RV information is The 12V Side of Life, Parts 1 & 2.

[Brian B-P]

Back to that Tripp Lite inverter...

The operating manual available from the manufacturer's product web page contains this statement:

Vehicle Electrical System Limitations
NOTE: Due to the limitations of certain vehicles’12VDC lighter/accessory outlet electrical systems,you may not be able to continuously run a full load (375 watts) from PV375 models. If you regularlyblow fuses, it may indicate your vehicle is not adequately wired to support a PV375 as it is designed.In this case, consult vehicle manufacturer recommendations for rewiring from the fuse block orbatterywith appropriate wiring (10 - 12 gauge) and fusing (at least 40 amp

While I would be a little leery of the 16-gauge input cord, the specs indicate a unit which should be able to sustain the rated 375 watt ouput, but of course that means 12VDC supply wiring (and "lighter" socket suitable for use at the inverter's stated input current of up to 40 amps.

I have a similar inverter in our van, and have no problems with it... but I don't power anything big enough to be an issue for the van's accessory socket and wiring.

If I were to plan on running something like this at more than about 100 watts, I would consider replacing the plug with a different design (trolling motor style? Powerpoles?) and installing a supply circuit of suitable capacity terminated in the corresponding receptacle. I wonder if Escape would install that at build time as a custom option?