21' tongue weight under 500lbs

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

That's what happens when you only have a 13.2 G black tank......


My main concern regarding the lower panel mounting is heat buildup - that is almost a surface mount approach. No bueno in Texas heat.


Have it fly off or have it fail due to heat? - guess I'll take fail.

I laughed pretty hard at that

And I hadn't thought about heat buildup. We are lucky to not have too much heat I'm the PNW but times are changing and we occasionally have exceptional heat. Will keep this in mind. Thanks.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Wow- when one has to go through all this stress in the front end with load calcs, etc., just think what it is going to be like while towing constantly second-guessing. Get the right tow vehicle!

The Sequoia is a full-size SUV with as much payload as many full-sized pickup trucks. Is a one-ton truck the only "right" tow vehicle for an Escape 21?

[7Gentex]

IMHO - you are pushing the boundaries with that TV (and a 2006 at that - though my wife has a 2006 diesel sedan) with that type of expected payload in the TV. You are close to "3/4" ton pickup territory to have a good cushion.........


There again - IMHO, though I'm sure many on here will say you are fine..........



As numerous RV'ers state, or I just did - "Get the trailer you want, then get an adequate TV for such"

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The Sequoia is a full-size SUV with as much payload as many full-sized pickup trucks. Is a one-ton truck the only "right" tow vehicle for an Escape 21?

If I was hauling around a family of 4, a large dog, and a trailer with the weights given - I'd be looking hard a a "3/4" ton gasoline powered pickup.........

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

-E2 fastway WDH hitch: Not sure what this does for tongue weight. These are heavy though and I can't imagine it being free extra weight.

Most of the WDH weight is carried by the tow vehicle (as added equipment), rather than the trailer (as increased tongue weight), but either way it all counts against the payload.

I'm sure that some people exceed the GVWR with a WDH, assuming that only the actual axle loads with WDH applied matter (not the actual weight). Adding the weight of the WDH then using it to shift load from the tug's rear axle to the other axles (trailer and tug front) won't make much net difference to the total load on the Sequoia's axles.

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

If I was hauling around a family of 4, a large dog, and a trailer with the weights given - I'd be looking hard a a "3/4" ton gasoline powered pickup.........

I agree but to be clear this older Sequoia is only a temporary tow vehicle until prices drop in a year or two. The kids are 1 and 4 years old so don't weigh much. Our large dog is half rottweiler and already 7 years old. It's sad but Rotties don't usually live past 9 or so. I don't anticipate needing a 3/4 ton vehicle as we don't plan on getting another 110lb dog. But will keep it in mind if needed. I'm also aware a 2006 is pushing it as far as age of vehicle to tow but the plan is mainly to go to state parks within an hour or two of the house until we know what we are doing and kids are a little older.

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Most of the WDH weight is carried by the tow vehicle (as added equipment), rather than the trailer (as increased tongue weight), but either way it all counts against the payload.

I'm sure that some people exceed the GVWR with a WDH, assuming that only the actual axle loads with WDH applied matter (not the actual weight). Adding the weight of the WDH then using it to shift load from the tug's rear axle to the other axles (trailer and tug front) won't make much net difference to the total load on the Sequoia's axles.

Ok thank you that's good to know and helps me understand what the WDH is doing. And I figure most would say that it's best to use the WDH even if it puts me closer to max payload?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Indeed, a bike rack and a couple heave ebikes will greatly lighten the tongue weight, my classic E21 gen1 was about 425 the first time I weighed it :O ... I've since been careful to put heavy stuff like beer, sodas under the front bed, and light stuff like paper towels under my rear dinette. For sure the trailer felt a little unstable when it was loaded with 425 lbs on the tongue, but my F250 diesel didn't much care. My truck has a 2000+ lb payload so I'm not real worried about that, and is rated to tow 12500 lbs w a hitch.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Re vehicle age, um, my truck is a 2002 with 250000 miles, and I would tow coast to coast with it tomorrow without thinking about it. It's all about how well maintained it is.

[JeffreyG]

My first take was that you should be able to make that work, but then I realized that you have just enough things going opposite ways from me that perhaps not.

I bought a Chevy Colorado diesel with a cargo capacity of 1390 lbs (which I confirmed with a run on a CAT scale with my mods and tanks full). So I looked at your limit of 1360 lbs.....very similar. On the one hand you are going for a heavier trailer in the 21NE than me with the 19.....but I also frequently carry sea kayaks on my rig and the two kids I have left at home are full sized.

FWIW I can make it work under the load limit. Here is my breakdown:
Me - 160
Wife - 135 (don't publish this, LOL)
Kid1 - 115
Kid2 - 105
Dog 1 - 45
Dog 2 - 30
Hitch - 100
Tongue - 450
Boat racks - 40
2 kayaks - 130
1 canoe - 55

All that leaves me with 25 pounds to spare for incidentals in the truck. That's not much margin attmittedly, but all that I listed up there is also really a worst case anyway. Two of my kids are already grown and gone, and the two that are left are increasingly busy and will be leaving in 2 and 5 years respectively. So a trip where I have everyone and the boats is not typical.

Your case might be worse in the young kids will get steadily heavier.


Anyway, I wrote all that to suggest you re-check your weights. Do your people really tally up to 750 pounds?

[John in Santa Cruz]

if you're running that close to the estimated payload of your vehicle, you should bring it by a truck scale and weight it with a full tank of gas. then subtract that actual weight from the GVWR to get your /real/ payload numbers.

btw, as far as relocating the battery, it /should/ be as close to the power converter as practical... I udnno where that is on a 21NE, on my classic 21 gen0, thats in back under the dinette.

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Re vehicle age, um, my truck is a 2002 with 250000 miles, and I would tow coast to coast with it tomorrow without thinking about it. It's all about how well maintained it is.

If we were talking about a 2002 F-250 (nice rig BTW!) in the original post, I would not have mentioned age, but since the OP's rig is so close to maximums and is "old"......I did. There again, "IMO" as I stated.

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

I agree but to be clear this older Sequoia is only a temporary tow vehicle until prices drop in a year or two. The kids are 1 and 4 years old so don't weigh much. Our large dog is half rottweiler and already 7 years old. It's sad but Rotties don't usually live past 9 or so. I don't anticipate needing a 3/4 ton vehicle as we don't plan on getting another 110lb dog. But will keep it in mind if needed. I'm also aware a 2006 is pushing it as far as age of vehicle to tow but the plan is mainly to go to state parks within an hour or two of the house until we know what we are doing and kids are a little older.

Understood

[MichaelS78]

Lots of replies, thank you for the input!

. Anyway, I wrote all that to suggest you re-check your weights. Do your people really tally up to 750 pounds?

Well I'm padding the weight by estimating how much the kids will weigh in 2 years. Being conservative on car seat weight. Also added padding for the little things that will be in the cabin no matter what like drinks , diaper bag, kids tablets etc. I know some would call that cargo but I try to separate that because it will change as our camping style changes. But little extra things will always find their way in the cabin with you. Lastly yes I think the greatest reduction in payload would be from me losing weight but it is what it is right now

. if you're running that close to the estimated payload of your vehicle, you should bring it by a truck scale and weight it with a full tank of gas. then subtract that actual weight from the GVWR to get your /real/ payload numbers.

Ok will do.

. If we were talking about a 2002 F-250 (nice rig BTW!) in the original post, I would not have mentioned age, but since the OP's rig is so close to maximums and is "old"......I did. There again, "IMO" as I stated.

This is why I am trying to be under Max payload by at least 100lbs or so. I know that would still be like 92% of payload and it's recommended to be no more than like 80% of payload but I think it's the best I can do for now. Tundra/Sequoias are well made so will just see what happens with it being an older vehicle and go from there.

. Indeed, a bike rack and a couple heave ebikes will greatly lighten the tongue weight, my classic E21 gen1 was about 425 the first time I weighed it :O ... I've since been careful to put heavy stuff like beer, sodas under the front bed, and light stuff like paper towels under my rear dinette. For sure the trailer felt a little unstable when it was loaded with 425 lbs on the tongue, but my F250 diesel didn't much care. My truck has a 2000+ lb payload so I'm not real worried about that, and is rated to tow 12500 lbs w a hitch.

I'll keep this in mind and hold off on the bike rack for awhile. Can put a small kids bike in the trailer along with positioning heavier stuff as you mention to offset anything unbalanced. Thanks. The comments in this thread have helped me see past just trying to lower tongue weight.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

I'll keep this in mind and hold off on the bike rack for awhile. Can put a small kids bike in the trailer along with positioning heavier stuff as you mention to offset anything unbalanced. Thanks. The comments in this thread have helped me see past just trying to lower tongue weight.

with my Tacoma, the bikes went on racks on the top of the truck. but with my current truck, thats just too tall to reach.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

This is why I am trying to be under Max payload by at least 100lbs or so. I know that would still be like 92% of payload and it's recommended to be no more than like 80% of payload but I think it's the best I can do for now. Tundra/Sequoias are well made so will just see what happens with it being an older vehicle and go from there.

Yeah, but WHY do people recommend being so far under the load limit?

Here is the deal.....your car can pull and carry the limit loads safely, on pretty much any road, and it won't die doing so (right away at least.) You know this because I absolutely guarantee you the development engineers went out and test the handling, the cooling, the brakes, the sustained hill climb of the vehicle when loaded to the various limits.

But, and here is the big "but".....for a passenger car the engineers do not anticipate you will be towing all the time. They expect this to be a sometimes thing. So the flip side is that the closer you are to 100% load and the more miles you run there, the faster your car will wear out.

For you trying to just get a couple more years out of it, and taking just local trips anyway, I would be completely comfortable running that thing right up to 1360 pounds.

So many people overload their vehicles. Often they do it unintentionally by pulling up to the "tow rating" of a vehicle while not understanding that it is frequently impossible to get to that number without going way over on GVWR.

So kudos to you for knowing the numbers and working to stay safe. But don't fork over margin you can't afford on a truck you aren't keeping forever anyway.

[John in Santa Cruz]

I'm pretty sure my Tacoma 4x4 was a fair bit overweight on numerous long trips. I made sure the trailer brakes worked well and the 'gain' on the brake controller was well adjusted. I had added airbags which greatly improved the ride of the truck when heavily loaded. I had load range "E" all terrain LT tires which were massive overkill, but I didn't have to worry about sidewall blowout or whatever. I was careful driving when heavily loaded to allow for longer braking distances, although the brakes were quite good and would pull that thing down from speed quite nicely. I knew I had no undercarriage rust to weaken things.

note I'm not advocating you overload your vehicle, but its not the end of the world to push things a little, trucks and truck based SUVs are very sturdy beasts

[JeffreyG]

Final thought, I sure wouldn't compromise on options I really wanted on an Escape long term just to save 5 lbs in tongue weight.

[MichaelS78]

Yeah, but WHY do people recommend being so far under the load limit?

Maybe I'm confusing the tow capacity recommendations of no more than 80% with payload capacity recommendations? Like you mentioned its very hard to get to 100% tow capacity without going over payload capacity. That blanket rule of don't go over 80% tow capacity is probably there to keep new RVers from over buying a trailer and not having payload to tow it.

I might just be confusing the too in regards to thinking I read that about payload.
Either way its good to know that I'm probably going to be safe as long as I keep an eye on it.

But don't fork over margin you can't afford on a truck you aren't keeping forever anyway.

Not sure I understand what you mean here?

[MichaelS78]

I had added airbags which greatly improved the ride of the truck when heavily loaded.

So the Sequoia does have airbags which I think will definitely be needed. Everything I've read suggests that Sequoias can sag a lot in the rear since they have a softer ride than the Tundra. From my understanding you can't look at airbags as something that will increase payload, its just for ride height. Not sure about "ride" either as I was under the impression the airbags made it stiffer?

I had load range "E" all terrain LT tires which were massive overkill, but I didn't have to worry about sidewall blowout or whatever.

I am a little worried about the tires. They're mid range firestone passenger tires and I called them to confirm if they were adequate to tow at close to max payload. They said yes they're designed for the vehicle and as long as its not exceeding its ratings they would be fine. I figure that is all they can say though and still wonder if it would be best to get good LT tires. The tires were manufactured in 2017 so they will be going on 5 years when we get the trailer. I think I am answering my own question on this one lol.

Lastly the previous owner stated that the Sequoia has a tow package but I'm not sure where to look it up. On the Toyota owners site it shows things such as previous service done etc but doesn't say anything about a tow package. Either the previous owner (not the first owner) was just guessing it had it or I need to look somewhere else, perhaps a dealership for this info? I'm not sure what would be different if it had the tow package to be honest. Not expecting a transmission cooler or something that would be found on a more beefy domestic vehicle.