21' tongue weight under 500lbs

[rjreeves]

OP's Sequoia has greater capacities than my Tacoma. With that as a baseline I'll report the following:
I run JUST under rated limits on TV tongue and cargo capacities, but well under TV tow cap.

Per the Sherline scale my tongue weight is routinely 460-480 fully loaded out the door. The E2 WDH I use adds considerable weight which has to be calculated in.
As OP states "I don't like the idea of maxing out payload" then OP would do well to heed the good advice already in this thread about upping the TV in the near future.


To answer OP's first question about options:


No AC
No toolbox
No microwave
No awning (ETI said it's the only one but I don't believe them)

Yes to the powered jack
Yes to the dual battery-inverter-solar ready package (behind trailer axles though so no tongue weight)



None of the above was done to satisfy the needs of the TV, rather BECAUSE THAT'S THE TRAILER I WANTED, also good advice stated elsewhere in this thread.
OP: do yourself a favor and get the powered jack. You're not getting any younger. My Tacoma tailgate opens with it.


Brian B-P stated "Most of the WDH weight is carried by the tow vehicle (as added equipment), rather than the trailer (as increased tongue weight)" but I believe this is incorrect. I believe any load behind the TV rear axle should calculated as tongue weight AND total cargo. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. It's usually a minor point but perhaps not if one is nearing weight limits. Especially with kids in the car.


All of the above is my long-winded way of saying with the E2 8K WDH my 21' and TV are dead level and super comfortable to tow. I feel safe, everything behaves well, the trailer brake boost works well (don't ask me how I know..). I've 3K miles under my belt now with this trailer/TV combo and feel confidant I'm safe and sane out there pushing TV limits notwithstanding. Forgot to mention I always go with a full H2O tank as well (also behind the trailer axles). She's never been squirrely or weird or a danger to myself or others that I'm aware of. Caveat: I (almost) never exceed speed limits, I slow down if it's windy, etc etc. the usual safe and sane recommends..


The Sequoia should be "adequate" until you're ready to upgrade. Just be careful.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

So the Sequoia does have airbags which I think will definitely be needed. Everything I've read suggests that Sequoias can sag a lot in the rear since they have a softer ride than the Tundra. From my understanding you can't look at airbags as something that will increase payload, its just for ride height. Not sure about "ride" either as I was under the impression the airbags made it stiffer?



I am a little worried about the tires. They're mid range firestone passenger tires and I called them to confirm if they were adequate to tow at close to max payload. They said yes they're designed for the vehicle and as long as its not exceeding its ratings they would be fine. I figure that is all they can say though and still wonder if it would be best to get good LT tires. The tires were manufactured in 2017 so they will be going on 5 years when we get the trailer. I think I am answering my own question on this one lol.

Lastly the previous owner stated that the Sequoia has a tow package but I'm not sure where to look it up. On the Toyota owners site it shows things such as previous service done etc but doesn't say anything about a tow package. Either the previous owner (not the first owner) was just guessing it had it or I need to look somewhere else, perhaps a dealership for this info? I'm not sure what would be different if it had the tow package to be honest. Not expecting a transmission cooler or something that would be found on a more beefy domestic vehicle.

Give a Toyota dealer your VIN number & they may be able to tell you the tow package & the info on the vehicle.

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by rjreeves

OP's Sequoia has greater capacities than my Tacoma. With that as a baseline I'll report the following:
I run JUST under rated limits on TV tongue and cargo capacities, but well under TV tow cap.

Per the Sherline scale my tongue weight is routinely 460-480 fully loaded out the door. The E2 WDH I use adds considerable weight which has to be calculated in.
As OP states "I don't like the idea of maxing out payload" then OP would do well to heed the good advice already in this thread about upping the TV in the near future.


To answer OP's first question about options:


No AC
No toolbox
No microwave
No awning (ETI said it's the only one but I don't believe them)

Yes to the powered jack
Yes to the dual battery-inverter-solar ready package (behind trailer axles though so no tongue weight)



None of the above was done to satisfy the needs of the TV, rather BECAUSE THAT'S THE TRAILER I WANTED, also good advice stated elsewhere in this thread.
OP: do yourself a favor and get the powered jack. You're not getting any younger. My Tacoma tailgate opens with it.


Brian B-P stated "Most of the WDH weight is carried by the tow vehicle (as added equipment), rather than the trailer (as increased tongue weight)" but I believe this is incorrect. I believe any load behind the TV rear axle should calculated as tongue weight AND total cargo. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. It's usually a minor point but perhaps not if one is nearing weight limits. Especially with kids in the car.


All of the above is my long-winded way of saying with the E2 8K WDH my 21' and TV are dead level and super comfortable to tow. I feel safe, everything behaves well, the trailer brake boost works well (don't ask me how I know..). I've 3K miles under my belt now with this trailer/TV combo and feel confidant I'm safe and sane out there pushing TV limits notwithstanding. Forgot to mention I always go with a full H2O tank as well (also behind the trailer axles). She's never been squirrely or weird or a danger to myself or others that I'm aware of. Caveat: I (almost) never exceed speed limits, I slow down if it's windy, etc etc. the usual safe and sane recommends..


The Sequoia should be "adequate" until you're ready to upgrade. Just be careful.

Lots of good info thank you! And I made a separate thread asking about the clearance for the powered jack. I need to research turning it sideways if needed. I'll plan on getting it.

As for WDH I'll look into versions that are lighter but still work well. Maybe Andersen instead of e2 fastway. Tons of threads on here about it so I should be able to find the weights to compare.

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Give a Toyota dealer your VIN number & they may be able to tell you the tow package & the info on the vehicle.

Ok thanks I'll do that soon.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rjreeves

Brian B-P stated "Most of the WDH weight is carried by the tow vehicle (as added equipment), rather than the trailer (as increased tongue weight)" but I believe this is incorrect. I believe any load behind the TV rear axle should calculated as tongue weight AND total cargo. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Most of the weight of the WDH is in the shank and head, which is mounted to the tow vehicle, not the trailer. It has almost the same effect on axle loads as tongue weight, because it is at almost the same distance from the rear axle, but that's true of any cargo carried that far back. It moves with the tow vehicle, not the trailer, so it's not part of the trailer or its tongue weight. There are bike racks which piggyback above the hitch (please don't use one of these!) and the load on them is the same thing: cargo, at the hitch location, not tongue weight.

The brackets mounted to the trailer frame do add to the trailer weight, mostly to the tongue weight rather than to the axle loads (because they're so close to the coupler). They move with the trailer, so they're part of the trailer weight and tongue weight.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

So the Sequoia does have airbags which I think will definitely be needed. Everything I've read suggests that Sequoias can sag a lot in the rear since they have a softer ride than the Tundra. From my understanding you can't look at airbags as something that will increase payload, its just for ride height. Not sure about "ride" either as I was under the impression the airbags made it stiffer?

Correct, changing springs (including adding air springs or adding air to air springs) doesn't by itself change the axle weight rating, because there are other limitations on that. The GVWR is probably less than the total of front and rear axle weight ratings anyway, due to even more limitations (such as in the frame), so changing springs is even further from increasing payload. What spring changes alone do is help the vehicle do a better job of handling the rated load, not increase the load rating.

Yes, when you add air, air springs get stiffer, but mostly they effectively get longer... like swapping the stock coil springs for longer coil springs, so the suspension sits higher under load.

Air springs help ride mostly by allowing the vehicle to have softer springs (for better ride) when it is lightly loaded, but to still have enough spring for heavier loads when that is needed.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

I am a little worried about the tires. They're mid range firestone passenger tires and I called them to confirm if they were adequate to tow at close to max payload. They said yes they're designed for the vehicle and as long as its not exceeding its ratings they would be fine. I figure that is all they can say though and still wonder if it would be best to get good LT tires. The tires were manufactured in 2017 so they will be going on 5 years when we get the trailer. I think I am answering my own question on this one lol.

They were correct - as long as the tires have sufficient capacity for the rated axle load (and they will if they are the factory stock tires or have equivalent load capacity), then they are not the loading limitation or a concern. Still, different tires may handle better or be more durable.

There were various sizes offered for the Sequoia, even in that year, depending on options (2WD vs. 4WD, trim level, whatever...). According to the 2006 owner's manual all were "P" type, and all of them have enough capacity for the axle ratings... in at least some cases even without inflating them to reach their maximum capacity. The first reference for 2006 Sequoia GAWR (rear) that I found was 3,900 pounds, and a common basic size for that year is a P265/70R16 (with load index of 111 for the "SL" or "standard load" version), which would have a maximum load (after derating by 10% because it's a "P" tire on tall vehicle) of over 4,300 pounds per pair.

Tires don't magically disintegrate at five or six years, but you have to make your own decision about what makes you feel comfortable.

I wouldn't be worried about the tires, or see the need for "LT" replacements. It does make sense to make sure - as with any vehicle and especially one that is towing - that when the vehicle is loaded and the trailer is hitched up, the vehicle is not only within it's allowed total weight (GVWR), but that the rear axle is carrying no more than what it is allowed (the Gross Axle Weight Rating or GAWR).

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

Lastly the previous owner stated that the Sequoia has a tow package but I'm not sure where to look it up. On the Toyota owners site it shows things such as previous service done etc but doesn't say anything about a tow package. Either the previous owner (not the first owner) was just guessing it had it or I need to look somewhere else, perhaps a dealership for this info? I'm not sure what would be different if it had the tow package to be honest. Not expecting a transmission cooler or something that would be found on a more beefy domestic vehicle.

You may need to call Toyota to check the VIN (or have a dealership do it), or to look for specific features that were part of the towing package. The package features can be difficult to determine for an older vehicle no longer featured on the manufacturer's website. In the 2006 Sequoia owner's manual the only reference to a towing package is about the 7-pin electrical connector at the rear bumper - that may be all that is included, since nothing else is required beyond the base vehicle equipment to tow the rated weight of trailer.

I don't know why you think a "domestic" vehicle would be more "beefy". Essentially all modern vehicles with automatic transmissions (regardless of where they are made or the nationality of the ownership of the manufacturer) have transmission fluid coolers, normally built into the radiator. Towing packages from Toyota have included an additional cooler, or a larger in-radiator cooler and/or more radiator capacity. My Toyota Sienna minivan has the towing preparation package equipment (which was standard in Canada but optional in the U.S.) which includes a larger cooler and radiator. I suspect that the Sequoia has appropriate transmission cooling capacity for towing at the vehicle's rated Gross Combined Weight Rating.

And by the way, the Sequoia and Tundra are built only in North America, and essentially only for the North American market. They're as roughly as "domestic" as a Ram pickup.

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

They were correct - as long as the tires have sufficient capacity for the rated axle load (and they will if they are the factory stock tires or have equivalent load capacity), then they are not the loading limitation or a concern. Still, different tires may handle better or be more durable.

There were various sizes offered for the Sequoia, even in that year, depending on options (2WD vs. 4WD, trim level, whatever...). According to the 2006 owner's manual all were "P" type, and all of them have enough capacity for the axle ratings... in at least some cases even without inflating them to reach their maximum capacity. The first reference for 2006 Sequoia GAWR (rear) that I found was 3,900 pounds, and a common basic size for that year is a P265/70R16 (with load index of 111 for the "SL" or "standard load" version), which would have a maximum load (after derating by 10% because it's a "P" tire on tall vehicle) of over 4,300 pounds per pair.

Tires don't magically disintegrate at five or six years, but you have to make your own decision about what makes you feel comfortable.

I wouldn't be worried about the tires, or see the need for "LT" replacements. It does make sense to make sure - as with any vehicle and especially one that is towing - that when the vehicle is loaded and the trailer is hitched up, the vehicle is not only within it's allowed total weight (GVWR), but that the rear axle is carrying no more than what it is allowed (the Gross Axle Weight Rating or GAWR).

That's great to know and very appreciated! The tires have lots of tread left and almost look new so I will use them until the 6 year mark at least.

[MichaelS78]

I don't know why you think a "domestic" vehicle would be more "beefy".

Just thinking about how Toyota didn't start making a 1/2 ton until early 2000's and the first gen tundra/sequoia are not quite as large as the 2nd gen. And how if you want a 3/4 ton or larger you have to go with ram, chevy or ford. I wasn't trying to say the first gen Sequoia isn't beefy, just not as beefy as the second gen and not as beefy as the even larger 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. The bigger and beefier you get the more I would expect a variety of towing packages/options. Such as towing mirrors and whatnot. That's all I meant by not expecting a big change from a Sequoia with a tow package vs without.

[fudge_brownie]

I have some real world experience towing with a 2012 Sequoia and a 2014 Escape 21. I have a Sherline tongue scale and when loaded I test the weight.

Here are my calculations for weight:
Sequoia Cargo Capacity - 1,218 lbs
Passengers(3 adult) 435
Bikes (4) 119
Inside Rack 20
Roof Rack est 35 w/o tandem mount
Tongue 500
Piano 32
Available 77 lbs

With gray and black tanks empty and a full fresh water tank my tongue weight is consistently 490 lbs. There is an effort inside the camper to place heavy items over the wheels, such as grill, foldable chairs, a case or two of adult beverages. This means we loose floor space and cannot make a lunch enroute without unloading items. For travel lasting several days this is not possible.

Since I did this calculation I have converted two bikes to eBikes. This would add 30 lbs to my bike total. I do not carry anything else inside the vehicle, it has to go into the trailer. My Sequoia is equiped with rear air bags inside the springs. I inflate them to 30 PSI. I do not use a weight distribution hitch. It has the big V8 engine.

Roof mounted bikes are the biggest issue. So much wind resistence. If possible I will only take three and put the tandem and two bikes inside to reduce the drag. The calculations above are when loaded max. This is a 300 mile trip one way several time a year and annual travel to Florida. Other trips are usually loaded lighter.

I have towed the Sequioa and Escape around 22,000 miles. From Nova Scotia to Vancouver Island, from Florida to Minnesota. It is a superb tow vehicle.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

I agree but to be clear this older Sequoia is only a temporary tow vehicle until prices drop in a year or two. The kids are 1 and 4 years old so don't weigh much. Our large dog is half rottweiler and already 7 years old. It's sad but Rotties don't usually live past 9 or so. I don't anticipate needing a 3/4 ton vehicle as we don't plan on getting another 110lb dog. But will keep it in mind if needed. I'm also aware a 2006 is pushing it as far as age of vehicle to tow but the plan is mainly to go to state parks within an hour or two of the house until we know what we are doing and kids are a little older.

I’m towing with a 2004 f150, rwd and super cab that i meticulously maintain. I’ve been across the country three times with it . Those 2006 sequoias are very reliable. I owned a 2000 tundra and would still be driving it except the previous owner didn’t rust proof the frame. A nasty issue with the early ones. My rear wheel drive truck has plenty of payload. My next truck will be similar. I don’t need 4 wheel drive and would rather have the increased payload. Ymmv

[brroberts]

I’ve towed all over the US, including Alaska, and Central and western Canada with my ‘98 Chevy 2500. I’ve never lost trip time except due to the death of close relatives. I’ve had to be creative in using time around repairs a few times. Fuel pump in Texas, water pump in Vermont and Sitka, Alaska, alternator in Talkeetna, Alaska, and a taillight board in New Jersey. The Sitka water pump I paid a shop to do, and the fuel pump left me dead on the road and cost more than it should to repair. The rest I fixed myself pretty easily. That is with a long trip every summer, the shortest being seven weeks. If you take care of the vehicle, mostly it will take care of you. The new one has so much smart electrical we’ll have to see how it holds up over time.

As far as tongue weight, I like it heavy. Trailers seem to tow better as long as the vehicle can support it. Even my Ranger XLT has an 1828LBS payload and is rated for 750lbs tongue weight.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

Just thinking about how Toyota didn't start making a 1/2 ton until early 2000's and the first gen tundra/sequoia are not quite as large as the 2nd gen. And how if you want a 3/4 ton or larger you have to go with ram, chevy or ford. I wasn't trying to say the first gen Sequoia isn't beefy, just not as beefy as the second gen and not as beefy as the even larger 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. The bigger and beefier you get the more I would expect a variety of towing packages/options. Such as towing mirrors and whatnot. That's all I meant by not expecting a big change from a Sequoia with a tow package vs without.

Okay, but there are about as many equipment options in light-duty pickups ("1/2 tons") as in the heavier pickups ("3/4 ton" and 1 ton", which are still only class 2 and 3 light-duty trucks).

In some cases the heavier trucks may have fewer of these options, because they only come equipped to work at their rated capacity - you buy the truck for the job, rather than buying the truck that many people use for commuting and grocery shopping and option it up to handle real work.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

So the Sequoia does have airbags which I think will definitely be needed. Everything I've read suggests that Sequoias can sag a lot in the rear since they have a softer ride than the Tundra. From my understanding you can't look at airbags as something that will increase payload, its just for ride height. Not sure about "ride" either as I was under the impression the airbags made it stiffer?

yes, the airbags effectively beef up the springs, a heavier load requires a stiffer spring to ride at the same height. because the vehicle HAS this heavier weight on board, the air bags do NOT make the ride harsher.

note, btw, the Tundra has a 'live' aka solid axle, with leaf springs, while the Sequoia has independent rear suspension with coil springs. that makes a big difference in ride quality.

I am a little worried about the tires. They're mid range firestone passenger tires and I called them to confirm if they were adequate to tow at close to max payload. They said yes they're designed for the vehicle and as long as its not exceeding its ratings they would be fine. I figure that is all they can say though and still wonder if it would be best to get good LT tires. .

FWIW, if you *ever* want to go offroad on something more challenging than a flat well graded gravel road into a campground, I *highly* recommend BF Goodrich All Terrain KO2 tires in your appropriate size. These are LT tires, and can be load range D or E. The higher load range really just means they can handle higher air pressure, but you should normally stick with the air pressure recommended by the vehicle manufacturer, adding maybe 5-10 PSI if you are at the top of your payload capacity. the KO2's are plenty quiet on pavement, give excellent dry and wet pavement traction, are darn good in the snow, wear well even on 90% pavement driving, and awesome on dirt other than deep sand or gloppy wet mud, for mud you really need a MT (Mud Terrain) tire which WILL be rough and noisy on the pavement.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

note, btw, the Tundra has a 'live' aka solid axle, with leaf springs, while the Sequoia has independent rear suspension with coil springs. that makes a big difference in ride quality.

Currently, yes, but not in 2006. That's the first generation of Sequoia/Tundra, in which both have a rear live beam axle, but the Sequoia has control arms and coil or air springs, while the Tundra has leaf springs. Yes, the Sequoia system still rides and handles better than the Tundra, but it's not independent.

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

yes, the airbags effectively beef up the springs, a heavier load requires a stiffer spring to ride at the same height. because the vehicle HAS this heavier weight on board, the air bags do NOT make the ride harsher.

note, btw, the Tundra has a 'live' aka solid axle, with leaf springs, while the Sequoia has independent rear suspension with coil springs. that makes a big difference in ride quality.




FWIW, if you *ever* want to go offroad on something more challenging than a flat well graded gravel road into a campground, I *highly* recommend BF Goodrich All Terrain KO2 tires in your appropriate size. These are LT tires, and can be load range D or E. The higher load range really just means they can handle higher air pressure, but you should normally stick with the air pressure recommended by the vehicle manufacturer, adding maybe 5-10 PSI if you are at the top of your payload capacity. the KO2's are plenty quiet on pavement, give excellent dry and wet pavement traction, are darn good in the snow, wear well even on 90% pavement driving, and awesome on dirt other than deep sand or gloppy wet mud, for mud you really need a MT (Mud Terrain) tire which WILL be rough and noisy on the pavement.

I recently looked at ko2's for my Honda element (which I use to tent camp with my son while waiting for 21NE). Thought they were overkill for the element and couldn't justify the price so went with Toyo open country instead. Extremely happy with their road performance as they're very quiet. But haven't done much off-road with them yet but plan to try boondocking with my son soon. I will keep the ko2's in mind for the Sequoia but wondering if the Toyo open country would work almost as well? They're significantly less expensive and reviewers call them the goldilocks tire for good balance between on and off road capability. I'll keep the ko2's high on the list though as I know they're supposed to be the gold standard.

[MichaelS78]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

I have some real world experience towing with a 2012 Sequoia and a 2014 Escape 21. I have a Sherline tongue scale and when loaded I test the weight.

Here are my calculations for weight:
Sequoia Cargo Capacity - 1,218 lbs
Passengers(3 adult) 435
Bikes (4) 119
Inside Rack 20
Roof Rack est 35 w/o tandem mount
Tongue 500
Piano 32
Available 77 lbs

With gray and black tanks empty and a full fresh water tank my tongue weight is consistently 490 lbs. There is an effort inside the camper to place heavy items over the wheels, such as grill, foldable chairs, a case or two of adult beverages. This means we loose floor space and cannot make a lunch enroute without unloading items. For travel lasting several days this is not possible.

Since I did this calculation I have converted two bikes to eBikes. This would add 30 lbs to my bike total. I do not carry anything else inside the vehicle, it has to go into the trailer. My Sequoia is equiped with rear air bags inside the springs. I inflate them to 30 PSI. I do not use a weight distribution hitch. It has the big V8 engine.

Roof mounted bikes are the biggest issue. So much wind resistence. If possible I will only take three and put the tandem and two bikes inside to reduce the drag. The calculations above are when loaded max. This is a 300 mile trip one way several time a year and annual travel to Florida. Other trips are usually loaded lighter.

I have towed the Sequioa and Escape around 22,000 miles. From Nova Scotia to Vancouver Island, from Florida to Minnesota. It is a superb tow vehicle.

Thank you for feedback on your experience with a Sequoia! It's good to know that the airbags help keep it level.

Can I ask what options you have that you think contribute to keeping tongue weight at 490? Or is it just the positioning of items in trailer? Id love to know if you have the storage box and 6v batteries. If you have the power jack and front solar panel. Those add up to a couple hundred pounds more.

I definitely plan on getting the sherline scale too.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

I definitely plan on getting the sherline scale too.

Get it with 1,000 pound gauge for accuracy and ease of reading.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by MichaelS78

I recently looked at ko2's for my Honda element (which I use to tent camp with my son while waiting for 21NE). Thought they were overkill for the element and couldn't justify the price so went with Toyo open country instead. Extremely happy with their road performance as they're very quiet. But haven't done much off-road with them yet but plan to try boondocking with my son soon. I will keep the ko2's in mind for the Sequoia but wondering if the Toyo open country would work almost as well? They're significantly less expensive and reviewers call them the goldilocks tire for good balance between on and off road capability. I'll keep the ko2's high on the list though as I know they're supposed to be the gold standard.

my experiences to date with alt brand tires are, many are great when new, but when they are partially worn, a lot of them either lose all traction or become very harsh and noisy. now, I've not tried those specific tires, and I do know a lot of 4x4 owners who like them, but I do not know about how long they last nor how well they hold up at 50% life.