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Old 02-03-2021, 09:05 AM   #1
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Build Sheet 12v and Inverter question

We are signing off on our build sheet Friday for our 5.0 and I thought we had everything set, but alas, I have build sheet jitters!
My question is this: we are getting dual lithium batteries, two solar panels and the 1500w inverter with all outlets. We plan on primarily boondocking and won't have a microwave or air conditioning. We were planning on just going with the standard 12v/usb outlet on the stack by the door, but now I'm wondering if we should add more of them. My understanding is that the straight 12v outlets draw less power from the batteries than the ones that run through the inverter, but how much less? Is it better to get all 12v/usb outlets and leave off the inverter? It certainly would be cheaper. Or have the inverter along with a few additional 12v/usb outlets? Why would we want the inverter, to run a small toaster oven or coffee maker? Could we run a small appliance like that without an inverter?
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Old 02-03-2021, 09:33 AM   #2
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You seem to be mixing two different things here (?)

The Inverter provides 110V AC power when not connected to shore power or a generator. If you have a need to power appliances or devices that plug into a 110V AC outlet in that scenario, the Inverter is what you need. Only you can know if you will want the ability to power such appliances or devices.

The USB/12V DC outlets are totally independent of the Inverter. Only you can know if all the devices you will want to power can run on USB or 12V DC, how many of those and where in the trailer you may want to plug those in.

IF you have devices which can run on either 120V AC OR USB/12 VDC directly, then yes, it is probably more efficeint to drive those directly from the USB/12V DC source. An example is charging a smartphone or tablet device .... it is more efficient (will use less net power from your batteries) to plug that smartphone's USB charging cable directly into a USB port rather than plug it's 'wall-wart' into a 110V AC outlet then run the USB charging cable from that to the phone.

BUT you need to ensure that the ETI provided USB ports provide sufficient current for the USB device (not all USB ports are equal, some have lower current capability than others) - some devices (e.g. smartphones or tablets) may require more. In that case you have a choice of plugging the device's wall-wart into a 110V AC outlet (powered by the Inverter) OR using a higher output 12V DC>USB adaptor into an ETI 12V DC outlet. The latter is probably more efficient in terms of battery use than the former.

So ultimately it all depends on the devices you anticipate wanting to use, the options they provide in terms of power sources, and where / how many of each type of device you want to accommodate in the trailer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by okhcolot View Post
Why would we want the inverter, to run a small toaster oven or coffee maker?
For appliances that are based on resistance heating elements such as those examples, even IF you find models that can run on 12V DC they are usually much less efficient than their 110V AC counterparts. For those heating appliances you are probably better off in the long run using 110V AC from an Inverter when the Inverter is capable of delivering the required power (you'll usually use less net battery power, IMO).

Hope that helps, good luck!
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Old 02-03-2021, 11:48 AM   #3
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On my 19 I did not get the inverter as I do not need a microwave. I have 5 12 volt outlets and run anything i need off them from fans to cpap machine. We don't drink coffee. The one thing i miss is not be able to make toast. Now i in the process of installing a inverter just to run a toaster.My point is you do not need a inverter But if you think you will ever want one the factory install is very reasonable priced. you could also get the inverter and one outlet. personalty for boondocking I like plenty of 12 volt outlets. It all depends on you camping style.
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Old 02-03-2021, 12:01 PM   #4
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I'm not getting a microwave (I'd prefer the bigger fridge and an oven) but I will get the inverter because my wife and I swill coffee by the gallon. Toast is another bonus.


I'll also run my griddle if the inverter can handle it, but that's going to be close on capacity. It's amazing how much power griddles pull. But they are so nice to cook on.
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Old 02-03-2021, 12:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okhcolot View Post
Or have the inverter along with a few additional 12v/usb outlets?
All depends on how you camp. If you want ultimate flexibility get the inverter to power 120 V AC outlets and add'l 12V DC outlets. Centex explained the difference well. We don't have a high power inverter and don't miss it but I can understand why people may want it. Definitely get more 12V/USB combo outlets regardless if you go with an inverter or not. If you are concerned with ever needing 120V AC for a LOW power device like a laptop you can always use one of these plugged into the 12V DC outlet:
https://www.energizerpower.com/product/en100/
(Note that it is a modified sine wave output. If it is a sensitive electronic device it may need a pure sine wave which the larger built-in Escape provided inverter would have) Obviously no microwave, toaster, coffee maker, etc. unless you have the larger inverter.
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Old 02-03-2021, 02:58 PM   #6
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My understanding is that the straight 12v outlets draw less power from the batteries than the ones that run through the inverter, but how much less?
Perhaps this was supposed to be "USB outlets run directly from 12 V draw less power from the batteries than the ones that are combined with AC outlets and run through the inverter, but how much less?"

If you are not using any AC appliances, and would only turn on the inverter to run the USB outlets that are combined with AC outlets or adapters plugged into AC outlets, you can save an amp or so of draw from the batteries by not turning on the inverter at all, and just using USB outlets and adapters that are plugged directly into 12 volts. That adds up if you have the inverter turned on all day just for USB power.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:03 PM   #7
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I'll also run my griddle if the inverter can handle it, but that's going to be close on capacity. It's amazing how much power griddles pull. But they are so nice to cook on.
Anything that plugs into a 15 amp 120 V AC receptacle uses no more than 1800 watts peak, or 1500 watts continuously. The inverter can handle any one of those appliances, but if you're getting close to the inverter's capability you're pulling over 150 amps from the battery and running a dual 6-volt set down from fully charged to 50% in not much more than half an hour.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:08 PM   #8
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For appliances that are based on resistance heating elements such as those examples, even IF you find models that can run on 12V DC they are usually much less efficient than their 110V AC counterparts. For those heating appliances you are probably better off in the long run using 110V AC from an Inverter when the Inverter is capable of delivering the required power (you'll usually use less net battery power, IMO).
There is no difference in heating efficiency of resistance heaters - they are all 100% efficient, turning all of the electricity used by them into heat. There is a difference in effectiveness, since 12 V DC appliances are usually much lower power than their 120 V AC counterparts, just because 15 amps at 120 V is practical and 150 amps from a DC accessory socket is not.

You might use less energy with the higher-power AC appliances because less heat is lost during the shorter operating time, and perhaps even enough to make up for the inefficiency of the inverter; that would mean more getting the job done more efficiently, even though the appliance itself is no more efficient.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:30 PM   #9
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Anything that plugs into a 15 amp 120 V AC receptacle uses no more than 1800 watts peak, or 1500 watts continuously. The inverter can handle any one of those appliances, but if you're getting close to the inverter's capability you're pulling over 150 amps from the battery and running a dual 6-volt set down from fully charged to 50% in not much more than half an hour.

Yeah, I'm planning on having two 100 Ah lithium batteries but the griddle may be a bridge too far unless I'm set up in a spot with all day sun on the solar panels.


I can live without it.
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Old 02-03-2021, 03:33 PM   #10
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...
You might use less energy with the higher-power AC appliances because less heat is lost during the shorter operating time, and perhaps even enough to make up for the inefficiency of the inverter; that would mean more getting the job done more efficiently, even though the appliance itself is no more efficient.
Yes, that's 'net efficiency' I was alluding to.
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Old 02-03-2021, 09:26 PM   #11
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Yes, that's 'net efficiency' I was alluding to.
And it may be better, or might be the same. The thing that is greatly different is just power, not efficiency.
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Old 02-03-2021, 10:49 PM   #12
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I'm not getting a microwave (I'd prefer the bigger fridge and an oven) but I will get the inverter because my wife and I swill coffee by the gallon. Toast is another bonus.


I'll also run my griddle if the inverter can handle it, but that's going to be close on capacity. It's amazing how much power griddles pull. But they are so nice to cook on.

A little off subject . Did you consider the 21 NE . Its 2,000 more but comes with the larger fridge ,kitchen window ,and u shaped dinette . when you add these option to the 19 the price different is very little. The reason i ask is because The 19 with large fridge and oven has very little cabinet space after that. maybe you know this. Just wanted to point it out so you new all your options. I came very close to the NE But thought the 19 was a better match for my v-6 tacoma. both very nice trailers
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Old 02-04-2021, 06:43 AM   #13
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We looked at the 21NE, but decided we prefer the 19. For us, we want the smallest trailer we can get with our minimum feature set (permanent queen bed, a bathroom, normal size RV fridge, and a 2-person dinette).

The items you mention, the u-shaped dinette and the bigger kitchen, are certainly nice and tempting. But we want to remain in a tow vehicle smaller than a full-size pickup now and in the future. If I talk myself into the 21NE for the 'nice to have' features I'll wind up with downstream problems like needing a tow vehicle that I can't actually park here, or overloading what I have.

Lot's of tradeoffs, but one nice thing with the long Escape lead time this year is that you have plenty of time to think them all through.
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Old 02-04-2021, 07:27 AM   #14
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You all are awesome, thanks for so much practical info! Signing off tomorrow, so I think I can go ahead with my decision and will hedge my bets-keep the inverter and add one or two usb/12v plugs. It's hard to know what you want in a trailer if you've only tent camped. I'm sure it will feel like a 5 star hotel compared to that
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Old 03-04-2021, 11:28 AM   #15
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We are finalizing our build for a 19this week and I have two questions I wondered if anyone had opinions on.
1. We have added a few of externa 12V/USB outlets (1,2,3 & 6). I see there is an option for external 12V/USB, is there any point in this? I see from earlier comments that the 12V is unreliable.
2. Not electric related. We are looking at the table support option. NOT going with the U shape dinette. Why would we use the marine support option? We will have a couple of 10—14 year olds, and my wife thinks they will be leaning etc. on the table, therefore the two post solution will be much more stable?
Thanks
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Old 03-04-2021, 11:48 AM   #16
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We are finalizing our build for a 19this week and I have two questions I wondered if anyone had opinions on.
1. We have added a few of externa 12V/USB outlets (1,2,3 & 6). I see there is an option for external 12V/USB, is there any point in this? I see from earlier comments that the 12V is unreliable.
Mark
If you see yourself plugging in anything while outside, it can be helpful. For example, you could charge a phone or Bluetooth speaker. It all depends on how you camp. The 12V/USB will work whether you're hooked up to shore power or not. The 120v outlet on the outside will only work if you're hooked up to shore power.

I've used the external USB/12v a handful of times when I wanted to work outside. Not necessary but it sure was nice to have.
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Old 03-04-2021, 11:53 AM   #17
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2. Not electric related. We are looking at the table support option. NOT going with the U shape dinette. Why would we use the marine support option? We will have a couple of 10—14 year olds, and my wife thinks they will be leaning etc. on the table, therefore the two post solution will be much more stable?
Thanks
Mark

The purpose of the marine support is that it speeds up conversion between bed and table quite a bit. So if you will have people sleep there every night, yet want it as a table every day, then the option would seem to be attractive.


If you plan to leave it set either as a table or a bed all the time and not go back and forth, then the dual post is fine.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:24 PM   #18
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1. We have added a few of externa 12V/USB outlets (1,2,3 & 6). I see there is an option for external 12V/USB, is there any point in this? I see from earlier comments that the 12V is unreliable.

I don't recall that 12V is unreliable. Anyway, wish I had a couple external 12V outlets for air compressor to top up tires and for a fan out under the awning when there is no breeze.
I've made do, running a 12V extension from inside. I also have DC splitters. All are cheap.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:34 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MEH View Post
We are finalizing our build for a 19this week and I have two questions I wondered if anyone had opinions on.
1. We have added a few of externa 12V/USB outlets (1,2,3 & 6). I see there is an option for external 12V/USB, is there any point in this? I see from earlier comments that the 12V is unreliable.
2. Not electric related. We are looking at the table support option. NOT going with the U shape dinette. Why would we use the marine support option? We will have a couple of 10—14 year olds, and my wife thinks they will be leaning etc. on the table, therefore the two post solution will be much more stable?
Thanks
Mark
Any 12 volt outlet out side will be exposed to road elements even know these are marine grade with a rubber plug water will still find a way in. Unless you have a planed need for the outlet I would not get it.
You would think the 2 poles would be more sturdy than the Springfield,But I have found thats not the case. It also gives you more floor space. on long trips i travel with the table down.the Springfield makes up and down simple . The only down side I seen is you cant just remove it and if you working on the electrical area of a 19' that is kinda a PITA. personally I like it better than the two poles mounts sticking up.
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Old 03-04-2021, 12:47 PM   #20
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1. We have added a few of externa 12V/USB outlets (1,2,3 & 6). I see there is an option for external 12V/USB, is there any point in this? I see from earlier comments that the 12V is unreliable.
Mark: It's clear you meant internal 12V/USB's @ 1,2,3 & 6. Good choices - especially #3 if you plan to have a 12V television on the swivel bracket like many owners do. I assume you get the standard location one as well. We only have them at locations 3, 4 & 5 and haven't yearned for more. The standard 12V only plugs are antiquated with open contacts on the back that can be shorted. The self contained 12V/USB's that you are considering are a much better choice. They look better too. We swapped out our three with the same ones Escape uses. In my opinion an external 12V is only necessary if you see a specific need (i.e. small air compressor, fan, etc.) Many owners do not have them and I suspect don't miss them. We added a marine grade 12V on the driver's side front but that is primarily for an air stone to keep bait alive when fishing. I know of one owner that had one of the exterior Escape supplied 12V/USB units fail but I'm assuming this was just an anomaly because I haven't seen reports from others. Not exactly sure what you mean by "12V is unreliable".
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