Off Grid Package....

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by drhoda

Were the original 6v batteries lead acid or agm? Brand name?

"AGM" is lead-acid; it just has the electrolyte (acid solution) absorbed into a glass fibre mat between the plates, rather than just sloshing around as in a "flooded" battery.

The only battery brand that I have noticed as used by Escape (before the recent lithium-ion batteries) is Interstate, in both 12 volt and 6 volt options. They have all been flooded, not AGM.

Interstate is a battery distributor with its own brand; it doesn't actually make batteries. Interstate batteries are made by Exide and some company within Brookfield Business Partners, presumably Clarios, which is the former Johnson Controls. Clarios (which most people will still know as Johnson Controls or JCI) and Exide are the big players in the lead-acid battery business; name a popular lead-acid battery brand and it probably belongs to or is supplied by one of these two.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by J&B Mitt

I suspect a generator's contribution pales in comparison to the greenhouse gas emitted from pulling our trailers.

No doubt but it all contributes. Solar emits nothing.

[drhoda]

Thanks!

[Jane P.]

So, I'm enjoying this thread as I have solar on my mind.

Question: is the $4000 price tag in Canadian or US dollars.

I recently added a 300w rooftop solar system to my BF 21 last month. This will be my first experience with solar.

There's something to be said about buying your own system as you can mix and match the components that best meet you pocketbook and needs. For instance, I'd op for a different solar controller and a smaller (8) gage solar cables. I'd like to discuss how the solar panels will be mounted.

I am a incrementalist, and completed this project in 3 phases:

Year 1: Purchased/installed Battleborn 100Ah Lithium Battery
Year 2: Purchased/installed Rooftop Solar System
Year 3: TBD if I want to install an Inverter and/or DC-DC Charger for TV.

PHASE I: I dropped a Battleborn 100AH Battery shortly after I purchased the trailer, with the plan to add solar this year. I spent the year camping and experimenting how my energy usage effects the Battleborn. And I found my single, lithium battery to be even more efficient than my two deep cell batteries. Although I had to sacrifice a cubby hole storage area by locating the Battleborn (and the solar controller) inside the cabin, I do prefer having it off the tongue.

For everyone's information, Battleborn offers discounts to Escape Owners' Club members. They also have a program which allows Escape Owners to trade up to future batteries.

These batteries are beginning to sell for less. I paid $900 (US dollars) for the Battleborn last year. This year, I could get it for $800-$850.

However, upgrading to a lithium battery requires additional investments: a Battery Voltage Meter (BVM); for older trailers, an extension to the lower section of the converter. You will also need a fuse block.

Battleborn offers steep discounts for the Victron 712 BVM (bluetooth), of which I took advantage. I believe I purchased it for $180 (don't make me look it up).

I had a professional install the Battleborn and accompaniments.

$1100.00, plus $250 labor.

Replaced converter lower section with multi stage. (Propably NA with new Escape)

$ 230, plus $68.00 labor


PHASE 2: Install the solar panels, wiring and instruments. I found very good prices from HQST and RichSolar, which have excellent reputations. I got 3 100watt "compact" panels for $85 per panel from HQST. But I have no idea if they would fit on the Escape rooftop. I'm guessing if I wanted to go DIY with a new Escape I'd purchase the same panels as Escape uses.

I ordered TEMco copper solar wiring via WendyNation/Amazon. What I found was that "quality" solar cables are expensive and cost about as much as the panels. Based on my research, you want to use 8 gage wires from the solar panels to your Solar controller. And, if possible, 6 gage from the solar controller to the battery. Depending on how long the route is from your panels to the controller, you'll be spending $65-$100.

I really like that Escape will prewire the trailer for solar. However, one potential problem with Escape Industries is the cable gage they use. If I were purchasing a new Escape trailer, I would explore getting them to prewire my trailer with 8 gage cables, or at least set things up so that I can easily pull my own wiring into the cabin from the roof and to the solar controller battery area. The efficiency and safety considerations are well worth the extra expense.

I decided to get a 40 amp MPPT Controller which, given my system, is worth the extra cost over a PWM. Because I wanted a bluetooth capabilities, I bought the Rich-Solar Controller with a Bluetooth module for $160.00. I prefer the RichSolar to Escape's controller. I also considered the Victron, but it's much more expensive and I was concerned about the amount of heat it puts out.

Rooftop fuses and connectors, cable glands, other misc purchases: $70 total.

The only other major consideration is mounting the panels. The Z-brackets are $30 vs $88 for drill-free mounts. I'd feel most comfortable with the manufacturer mounting the panels - assuming they can use the cables sizes I prefer.

For phase 3 of this project, I want to see if I need an inverter or a DC-DC charger for my TV. I currently have a portable 400 w inverter. If warranted, I'll install a larger one next year. I'd go with a 1200-1500 watt inverter. Something powerful enough to support a LED TV, my laptop and small power tools.

But again, as Escape offers to install an inverter for new owners, I'd go that route right away.

In an ideal world, I'd get a backup generator (costs less than a 2nd lithium), and install fewer solar panels. Unfortunately, I cannot figure out how to safely mount one on my BF 21 trailer.

So: my costs
Year 1: $1100.00 battery, BVM/ misc. equipment & parts
250.00 labor

Year 2: $ 670.00 solar panels, wiring, equipment/parts;
500.00 Labor

Grand total (equipment & labor) : $2520, US dollars. This does not include taxes. This does not include a second battery or an inverter.


I must say, I am skeptical regarding the need for a second lithium battery, given that these are small trailers with fairly limited energy requirements.

Having boon docked extensively the past decade or so, and having a year's experience with the Battleborn battery, I really don't understand what will be gained with a second lithium battery. Especially if you are not full timing.

I understand, that everyone has their own individual camping style. Even so, I'd buy an Inverter generator and mount it on the tongue or in the front storage box. A backup generator would give me peace of mind when boon docking for long periods in the same campsite, and allow me to use my microwave every once in a while (frozen Healthy Choice entrees take time). Everything else: my stereo, LED lightning, a CPAP unit, even a ceiling fan can be powered during the night by a single lithium.

Just say'n

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

One thing I noticed is several buyers going for the complete package with out understanding the advantages and Disadvantages. I sure would not want to pay 4,000 only to have ETI put the Lithium battery's outside where there exposed to below freezing temps. I also waiting to hear reports on how well the single 100 AH lithium battery is working with the 1500 watt inverter. That's a lot of amp Draw to ask out of a single 100 ah battery. I got the two 6 volts with plans to upgrade latter. after using them for about a year They seem to do everything I need to do. Runs Furnace, cpap, lights,fridge, stereo and inverter for toast . 90% of my camping they never get pulled below 85%. There outside and I don't have to worry about cold Temperatures. They work for me. If they fail someday I can drive to any cosco and replace them for $200-$250. There is certainly situations where one could benefit from the total package . My point is to understand your needs .

[cpaharley2008]

My point is to understand your needs .
Very true......

[Ret.LEO]

The good news is Battleborn has "heated Li batteries"
https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...d-battery-kit/

[richm]

Will Prouse has a video of a disassembled Bestgo 400Ah lithium battery, and said nice things about the build quality.

https://youtu.be/F2ynIbGsc1E

The 12V version is here: https://www.electriccarpartscompany....-battery-packs

[Chris R]

I posted this in another thread, but is relevant here.

https://mortonsonthemove.com/go-north/
In Episode 4 on the above website, timestamp 4:10 to 14:50, they visit the BattleBorn factory in Reno and install a 5 battery system. It shows how the batteries are constructed.

[Jane P.]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

One thing I noticed is several buyers going for the complete package with out understanding the advantages and Disadvantages. I sure would not want to pay 4,000 only to have ETI put the Lithium battery's outside where there exposed to below freezing temps. I also waiting to hear reports on how well the single 100 AH lithium battery is working with the 1500 watt inverter. That's a lot of amp Draw to ask out of a single 100 ah battery. I got the two 6 volts with plans to upgrade latter. after using them for about a year They seem to do everything I need to do. Runs Furnace, cpap, lights,fridge, stereo and inverter for toast . 90% of my camping they never get pulled below 85%. There outside and I don't have to worry about cold Temperatures. They work for me. If they fail someday I can drive to any cosco and replace them for $200-$250. There is certainly situations where one could benefit from the total package . My point is to understand your needs .

You certainly clarified my thoughts - thank you.

First of all, I do want some say on what off-grid components (ie battery make, solar controller, BVM) I can purchase, which Escape makes easy cause these items are excluded from the off-grid package.

The tongue is not where I would store a lithium (due to security concerns as well as exposure to extremes in heat & cold). I know from experience that extra labor would be involved in locating the battery in the cabin. So, that would probably increase the cost to the off-grid package.

I also want input on where this equipment will be placed. It's really an individual choice regarding where in the cabin you ultimately want to locate the solar controller, battery, fuse block, inverter and any other miscellaneous equipment. But the buyer would need to think about it before the off-grid package is installed.

My biggest complaint: in addition to being overly expensive, Escape's off-grid package is inadequate. An inverter is not needed right away (if ever), but you will immediately need a solar controller; a BVM, fuses, other misc rooftop accessories. None of these items are included in the off-grid package. 12 volt outlets, which would bypass the need for an inverter are not included as part of this package. Even Escapes' gage size for solar cables could be improved upon. Depending on where you decide to locate the battery and solar controller, the standard prewire location may be unusable. THIS IS NOT A TURN KEY PACKAGE

Which brings us to the solar panels: two 180 watt panels. My sense is there is not much room on the roof for solar. The panels appear to be long and narrow. Traditional 100w or 200w panel may not fit. Flexible panels are controversial.

Assuming these panels are the best for that roof configuration, and you really want to splurge on a second panel, one 100Ah Lithium should power both panels.

NYHillbilly has a point regarding if one lithium will power a 1500w inverter. Call Battleborn and ask before commit to a potentially unnecessary 2nd battery.

Accordingly, you may want to try out the trailer for a season or two and see if you need to add a second solar panel down the line. That would be an easy, and not particularly expensive install. Dropping a second lithium would also be easy. Why spend $1000 for that panel and 2nd battery up front? Actually, why spend $4000?

Which does bring us around to labor issues. I personally like the idea of the manufacturer mounting the panels. Assuming I felt comfortable regarding the location of the battery and solar equipment, and Escape would agree to prewire the cabin area with 8 gage copper cable, I would have no problem with Escape completing that initial phase of the solar install, including dropping the battery. I could easily complete the project when I returned home.

But even if that is not feasible, all you need is a reputable RV specialist. The install work, plus the system components you prefer, can be completed for less than Escape is charging. And you'd be expending minimal energy and time.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

One thing I noticed is several buyers going for the complete package with out understanding the advantages and Disadvantages. I sure would not want to pay 4,000 only to have ETI put the Lithium battery's outside where there exposed to below freezing temps. I also waiting to hear reports on how well the single 100 AH lithium battery is working with the 1500 watt inverter. That's a lot of amp Draw to ask out of a single 100 ah battery. I got the two 6 volts with plans to upgrade latter. after using them for about a year They seem to do everything I need to do. Runs Furnace, cpap, lights,fridge, stereo and inverter for toast . 90% of my camping they never get pulled below 85%. There outside and I don't have to worry about cold Temperatures. They work for me. If they fail someday I can drive to any cosco and replace them for $200-$250. There is certainly situations where one could benefit from the total package . My point is to understand your needs .

As to the ability of a single 100 amp hour lithium battery matching a 1500 watt inverter, it depends. According to Battleborn, to use the full capacity of a 1500 watt inverter for more than a minute or so with their batteries, 2 100 amp hour batteries would be necessary. Other manufacturers rate their batteries differently, so a check with the manufacturer is necessary.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

As to the ability of a single 100 amp hour lithium battery matching a 1500 watt inverter, it depends. According to Battleborn, to use the full capacity of a 1500 watt inverter for more than a minute or so with their batteries, 2 100 amp hour batteries would be necessary. Other manufacturers rate their batteries differently, so a check with the manufacturer is necessary.

The Go power GP-LIFEPO4-100 That ETI is using is rated

Maximum Discharge Current
100A (continuous); 120A (30 minutes); 150A (5 seconds)
This is why i was surprised they offer the 1500 watt inverter option with just one of these batteries.I haven't seen any real world reviews . IMO In real world use you would need a pair.

[Brian B-P]

To clarify the comments about locating a lithium-ion battery on the tongue: the only current Escape model which locates the battery (of any kind) on the tongue is the 19'. The 5.0TA (or just 5.0 as they are calling it now) and 21' use the same battery location, for any type or configuration of battery, always inside.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

To clarify the comments about locating a lithium-ion battery on the tongue: the only current Escape model which locates the battery (of any kind) on the tongue is the 19'. The 5.0TA (or just 5.0 as they are calling it now) and 21' use the same battery location, for any type or configuration of battery, always inside.

The 21 NE is also on tongue. so of the current 5 models ETI offers only two of them have batteries inside. the 5.0 and 21C .

[kathytony1985]

I just received email confirmation from Melisa at ETI that our 2 Lithium batteries will be located in the lockable storage box at the front of our 21NE.

[Berndad]

I was able to replace our 2 6 volts with 2 100 amp hour Lion Safari 1300 brand Lithium Iron PO4 units on sale at Costco last year. I did install a Victron controller and Battery monitor (pre wired by Escape with the cable we sent them) with minimal changes to the 19. Adding isolating fuses for both solar panel and batteries was not that difficult under the driver side seat. Come see and critique if you are near the Hiawassee GA Egg Rally this weekend! Our 2 factory 190 Watt solar panels keep us well charged and boondocking with no worries (Including 2 12 volt CPAP's and several other 12 volt mods. Total cost for all the mods was under $1700 including batteries). We have a 2000 watt inverter but never use it, 12 volt rules! I also installed 2 low temp 12 volt heating units under the batteries to allow us to charge all winter long in VA. The Lion's do have a low temp cut off, but we use the camper in freezing weather sans water.
We are at site C 14!

[JeffinBC]

Question: is the $4000 price tag in Canadian or US dollars.

$4140 USD ($5240 CAD)...on the 21C. $3660/$4640 on the 17s. I assume the difference is due to having one less solar panel and any peripherals required to run 1 vs 2.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

The 21 NE is also on tongue. so of the current 5 models ETI offers only two of them have batteries inside. the 5.0 and 21C .

Ah I forgot about the new floorplan variation.

The 17' has them on the rear bumper, not the tongue... but yes, that's outside which is what matters for temperature control.

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by oldwave

No doubt but it all contributes. Solar emits nothing.

Might want to look into that belief a bit further...............


A bit about the manufacture of solar panels................after mining the quartz ( silicosis anyone?) and turning it into silicon in giant electric furnaces.


"...turning metallurgical-grade silicon into a purer form called polysilicon—creates the very toxic compound silicon tetrachloride. The refinement process involves combining hydrochloric acid with metallurgical-grade silicon to turn it into what are called trichlorosilanes. The trichlorosilanes then react with added hydrogen, producing polysilicon along with liquid silicon tetrachloride—three or four tons of silicon tetrachloride for every ton of polysilicon."

[VTMurphy]

We are also considering solar options for a 5.0. At first the solar pkg seemed a good choice, and would definitely have us ready for almost anything. After more thought, however, we realized that we do not use small appliances or anything that would need a 120 outlet. All we want is to run the items typically run by the battery -the ceiling fan, lights, and furnace blower. We also want to charge our phones and iPads using the USB outlets. So no need for an inverter. We do want two solar panels because we do not always park in full sun, same reason we would want the solar port so we could add a solar suitcase. Only remaining choice is two regular batteries or one lithium. The two panels, solar port, and batter(ies) of choice will cover everything important to us, and be quite less $$ than the solar package.