safely tow cargo trailer plus keep TRUCK camper on?

[Losangeles]

Hello wise towing experts!

Used to own a 21' but .... now own a truck camper.... but I need some towing advice.

Pardon my ignorance but I want to do this safely and figure this out. I’m sure the wise people here can guide us.

Yes, I’m aware that the door stickers “cargo” is referring to what is IN the truck, not including towing….. (correct?)

I am driving a 2020 F350.
*Always* on the back is a truck camper.

I want to do a long road trip and on the way back, I’ll have a uHaul 6x12 Cargo Trailer Rental behind.

Inside it will be 250 cubic feet of household goods, that weighs about 1,800 lbs….. so a smaller uHaul wont fit the goods and also wont be rated for 1,800 lbs cargo (the next size smaller i could jam in 250 cubic feet, but would be overweight. I can’t be overweight for reasons I wont go into)

(Must not exceed maximum allowable hitch ball height 25”) from the Uhaul website.

With all of my camping gear, food, clothing, water, gas, propane, etc. I do know the F350 + our camping trailer is 11,300 lbs.
I know this # as I went onto a truck scale nearby and had it weighed, wet and loaded up.

So the *empty* weight of the Uhaul 6 x 12 cargo trailer is: 1,920 lbs..

so the total weight of the whole rig would be
11,300 (truck and camper, wet)
1,800 (my household goods I am picking up)
1,920 (the empty cargo uHaul)

total = 15,020 lbs.

Yes, I want to camp as I go on this trip. (I’ll have to figure out long pull thru sites, of course, to camp at, as I’ll be long.)

So firstly - is this safe? doable?

and… in the picture attached just ignore the hitch steps I currently have (in the blue oval) - those obviously wont be there during the whole trip.

Secondly - the truck camper hangs off the back about 20” approx….
would I hitch right at the stock hitch?

I suspect it would be best to not use a hitch extension…. (because of leverage) and just hitch right at the usual place.

Does this look workable? Would I have enough safety capacity to tow my cargo?

I have a 6.2 gasser with the new 10 speed transmission, 4.3 back end, and i’m 100% confident that I’ll have enough grunt to tow…..

My concern is just total weight, and safety. (and how safest to hook up the cargo trailer - with or without the hitch estension?)

and… I’ll need to buy a 2.5” shank, 2” ball mount to fit into my F350 - any suggestions?

thanks!!

Here is the Uhaul 6x12 enclosed cargo trailer.

https://www.uhaul.com/Trailers/6x12-...ler-Rental/RV/

[AllanEdie]

Yes, I’m aware that the door stickers “cargo” is referring to what is IN the truck, not including towing….. (correct?)

Nope, not quite. Your hitch load is part of the cargo figure. Given that you have a combined trailer and contents weight of ~3700 lbs, with >10% hitch weight, you will likely be a couple hundred pounds over the cargo rating of your truck. Further, the specified maximum hitch weight for the truck likely does not include a hitch extension. You may not be able to tow without one. You need enough clearance behind the camper body to allow turning corners, including while backing up and getting the trailer a long way off axis. Screw this up, and you may crush the camper corner, and also get stuck with repairs to the damaged trailer.



The other figure not apparent in your door sticker is the combined vehicle weight which says how much the combination of your loaded truck (with camper, contents and occupants) and any trailer can be. I am guessing, but expect that you will be overloaded there as well, perhaps by quite a bit more than you are with cargo.


Another issue here is that your hitch weight will in effect move your load center of gravity rearwards another notch, again exacerbated by the hitch extension you will likely need. Your camper, odds are, already places the load center of gravity further back than your truck requires, and the hitch load will make it worse. Having your center of gravity of the load too far back can dangerously affect vehicle behaviour, and may well interact badly with any tendency to trailer sway.



Whether all this is safe is, arguably, a separate decision for you, but I think you are pushing the envelope, perhaps a lot. My main concern is with the hitch extension and how that could exacerbate trailer sway, perhaps not helped by how loaded the TV is, and how far back the center of gravity of the load is. Were it not for that issue, I might not worry about a couple hundred pounds over the combined vehicle weight rating, but the hitch extension and its potential affect on vehicle behaviour makes me nervous. With your heavily loaded vehicle, if you managed to generate sway, it could get bad in an uncontrollable hurry, and you could take out other vehicles as well as your own.



Overall, I would say forget the combination. Either go camping, or move your stuff, not both.



Just my two cents of course, there will no doubt be other opinions.

[Losangeles]

Hey Allan -

thanks so much for the great info. Much appreciated.

So one alternative would be to strip out maybe 300 lbs (?) or more (?) of camping gear from the camper. That would get me closer to being ok.... maybe?

It would likely be just me in the truck (no other passengers) and traveling very, very light so that would help too.

Luckily i wont be making this trip for a good long time, so i have plenty of time to figure it out, or a plan B or plan C.

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Yes, I’m aware that the door stickers “cargo” is referring to what is IN the truck, not including towing….. (correct?)

Nope, not quite. Your hitch load is part of the cargo figure. Given that you have a combined trailer and contents weight of ~3700 lbs, with >10% hitch weight, you will likely be a couple hundred pounds over the cargo rating of your truck. Further, the specified maximum hitch weight for the truck likely does not include a hitch extension. You may not be able to tow without one. You need enough clearance behind the camper body to allow turning corners, including while backing up and getting the trailer a long way off axis. Screw this up, and you may crush the camper corner, and also get stuck with repairs to the damaged trailer.



The other figure not apparent in your door sticker is the combined vehicle weight which says how much the combination of your loaded truck (with camper, contents and occupants) and any trailer can be. I am guessing, but expect that you will be overloaded there as well, perhaps by quite a bit more than you are with cargo.


Another issue here is that your hitch weight will in effect move your load center of gravity rearwards another notch, again exacerbated by the hitch extension you will likely need. Your camper, odds are, already places the load center of gravity further back than your truck requires, and the hitch load will make it worse. Having your center of gravity of the load too far back can dangerously affect vehicle behaviour, and may well interact badly with any tendency to trailer sway.



Whether all this is safe is, arguably, a separate decision for you, but I think you are pushing the envelope, perhaps a lot. My main concern is with the hitch extension and how that could exacerbate trailer sway, perhaps not helped by how loaded the TV is, and how far back the center of gravity of the load is. Were it not for that issue, I might not worry about a couple hundred pounds over the combined vehicle weight rating, but the hitch extension and its potential affect on vehicle behaviour makes me nervous. With your heavily loaded vehicle, if you managed to generate sway, it could get bad in an uncontrollable hurry, and you could take out other vehicles as well as your own.



Overall, I would say forget the combination. Either go camping, or move your stuff, not both.



Just my two cents of course, there will no doubt be other opinions.

[jennykatz]

My friend owns a F350 with 8ft bed and a big camper he tows a 2019 2 door Jeep Wrangler no problem. In fact he sometimes will tow a8000 lb boat and trailer 32ft with this combo . The truck seems rock solid it also has the 6.7 diesel The biggest problem is the length . Good luck with your move Jim W

[AllanEdie]

Thanks for mentioning that we are dealing with a 350 grade TV. For some reason, I missed that in my earlier reply - I'll blame the grey hair.


The much stiffer rear suspension of the truck would definitely reduce my concerns with the OP's setup, and your friend's experience is directly applicable. Given both, the OP should be able to make things work with careful driving.


If it were me starting out with the tow setup, I would test the behaviour by trying to generate sway behaviour under controlled conditions, and if there was no indication of instability, I would continue with appropriate caution.

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Thanks for mentioning that we are dealing with a 350 grade TV. For some reason, I missed that in my earlier reply - I'll blame the grey hair.


The much stiffer rear suspension of the truck would definitely reduce my concerns with the OP's setup, and your friend's experience is directly applicable. Given both, the OP should be able to make things work with careful driving.


If it were me starting out with the tow setup, I would test the behaviour by trying to generate sway behaviour under controlled conditions, and if there was no indication of instability, I would continue with appropriate caution.

Thanks.

I have the single rear wheel, but the upper large rubber pucks were bolted onto the rear leaf springs (I forget the brand name) to always engage the overloads... and the rig is unbelievably solid not towing.

the truck camper makes the rig about 9' high.... and the rig is about 22 feet long (20' for the long bed crew cab F350) and in 25 mph gusty cross winds the rig is rock solid.

It was funny... on one trip we were driving and knew there was a stong wind from the trees, but didnt feel it at all. Stepped out of the truck and was being blown around. Handles much better than the very tall + long Sprinter van we considered buying and converting.

so i think that all works in my favor.

cheers

[AllanEdie]

Sounds to me that you are likely fine regarding trailer sway. You will still be dealing with longer braking distance, but that can be dealt with under most circumstances by defensive driving. Sounds like you should be able to do your trip with reasonable safety.


Good luck with it, and thanks for being responsible by looking for advice. Too many drivers just load it up and head out without sufficient attention to towing risks. I have experienced violent trailer sway many years ago before I had any idea about the risks, and only escaped with my life by luck, so I am very careful about it.

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Sounds to me that you are likely fine regarding trailer sway. You will still be dealing with longer braking distance, but that can be dealt with under most circumstances by defensive driving. Sounds like you should be able to do your trip with reasonable safety.


Good luck with it, and thanks for being responsible by looking for advice. Too many drivers just load it up and head out without sufficient attention to towing risks. I have experienced violent trailer sway many years ago before I had any idea about the risks, and only escaped with my life by luck, so I am very careful about it.

Thanks Allan... I'm cautious too.

The uHaul cargo trailer comes with "built in automatic surge brakes" and while i would not put ANY faith in them actually working.... in a perfect world they'll be there, and will do *something* LOL.

I generally drive very carefully... and the uHaul suggests 55 mph max, and that sounds good..... the roads on the 1 way trip are 99% wide open + empty, (midwest) so that will be in my favor. I'll only drive daytime, and i'll take plenty of time. No dusk or night driving, for sure.

Having previously towed a 21' Escape with an Acura MDX a bunch I know all about super defensive and careful driving.

[AllanEdie]

Good on you sir, it seems that we are on the same page with driving habits. You should be just fine with your setup.


As to the surge brakes, if I were you I would play with them a bit to see how they behave with your rig. They can get up to mischief with some tow setups - "surge" might give you a hint. The trailer brakes come on, which reduces the pressure from the hitch, which reduces the surge braking, which increases the hitch pressure, which increases braking, etc. Sometimes this can result in nasty oscillation of trailer braking which could cause an accident. I doubt that your rig would be sensitive to this, but I would play with it so you don't get any surprises.

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Good on you sir, it seems that we are on the same page with driving habits. You should be just fine with your setup.


As to the surge brakes, if I were you I would play with them a bit to see how they behave with your rig. They can get up to mischief with some tow setups - "surge" might give you a hint. The trailer brakes come on, which reduces the pressure from the hitch, which reduces the surge braking, which increases the hitch pressure, which increases braking, etc. Sometimes this can result in nasty oscillation of trailer braking which could cause an accident. I doubt that your rig would be sensitive to this, but I would play with it so you don't get any surprises.

Yikes! Thanks for the heads up, kind sir.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

Yes, I want to camp as I go on this trip. (I’ll have to figure out long pull thru sites, of course, to camp at, as I’ll be long.)

So firstly - is this safe? doable?

This part - about camping with the trailer - is not a problem. The rig really isn't very long, compared to trucks pulling travel trailers. You can even back into sites, although since you don't plan to do this regularly it might not be worth getting good at that.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

I’ll need to buy a 2.5” shank, 2” ball mount to fit into my F350 - any suggestions?

Since you don't need the load capacity of the 2.5" square shank, you can use an adapter sleeve which allows you to use a much more common and cheaper 2" shank ball mount. The truck may have even come with one - they're very commonly used because 2.5" hardware is so much less common than 2" hardware.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

… in the picture attached just ignore the hitch steps I currently have (in the blue oval) - those obviously wont be there during the whole trip.

Secondly - the truck camper hangs off the back about 20” approx….
would I hitch right at the stock hitch?

I suspect it would be best to not use a hitch extension…. (because of leverage) and just hitch right at the usual place.

As long as the trailer body clears the camper body in extreme turns, and the trailer's jack or other tongue-mounted equipment clears the camper, there's no reason for an extension. As you are thinking as as Allan explained, any extension should be avoided.

If you had to use an extension, it looks like you already have one in the form of a double receiver adapter, with a step in the top socket and a bumper in the bottom one.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Yes, I’m aware that the door stickers “cargo” is referring to what is IN the truck, not including towing….. (correct?)

Nope, not quite. Your hitch load is part of the cargo figure. Given that you have a combined trailer and contents weight of ~3700 lbs, with >10% hitch weight, you will likely be a couple hundred pounds over the cargo rating of your truck.

True - this alone is an issue.

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Further, the specified maximum hitch weight for the truck likely does not include a hitch extension. You may not be able to tow without one. You need enough clearance behind the camper body to allow turning corners, including while backing up and getting the trailer a long way off axis. Screw this up, and you may crush the camper corner, and also get stuck with repairs to the damaged trailer.

That may not be a big issue. U-Haul cargo trailers have long pole tongues with nothing sticking up from them substantially, so a hitch which places the ball just behind the bumper as usual and thus under the camper may work... and for towing stability avoiding a hitch extension is good.

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

The other figure not apparent in your door sticker is the combined vehicle weight which says how much the combination of your loaded truck (with camper, contents and occupants) and any trailer can be. I am guessing, but expect that you will be overloaded there as well, perhaps by quite a bit more than you are with cargo.

That is unfortunately not on the placard, but is well documented. It will not be an issue for an F-350 with a couple of tons of camper and a trivial little two ton trailer. The Gross Combination Weight Rating for a 2020 F-350 with 6.2 L, 10-speed, and 4.3:1 final drive is 23,000 pounds... you have almost four tons of capacity to spare even with the loaded trailer in tow.

Even an F-150 would likely be fine. With only four tons of cargo (including camper) and trailer, the rig would be under GCWR with at least most vehicle configurations.

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Another issue here is that your hitch weight will in effect move your load center of gravity rearwards another notch, again exacerbated by the hitch extension you will likely need. Your camper, odds are, already places the load center of gravity further back than your truck requires, and the hitch load will make it worse. Having your center of gravity of the load too far back can dangerously affect vehicle behaviour, and may well interact badly with any tendency to trailer sway.

The numbers to check here are the resulting rear axle load (whatever it is now plus the trailer tongue weight multiplied by a factor dependent on hitch extension) and the corresponding limit (GAWR-Rear, which is 7230 pounds).

Rearward load distribution is normal for pickup trucks in their loaded state, which is why the rear axle weight rating is 1630 pounds higher than the front axle weight rating. That needs to be checked, but the greater stability concern is with the height of the mass being carried by the truck - that's okay by itself (that's exactly what this truck was chosen for) but would be a less than ideal combination with a trailer.

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Whether all this is safe is, arguably, a separate decision for you, but I think you are pushing the envelope, perhaps a lot. My main concern is with the hitch extension and how that could exacerbate trailer sway, perhaps not helped by how loaded the TV is, and how far back the center of gravity of the load is. Were it not for that issue, I might not worry about a couple hundred pounds over the combined vehicle weight rating, but the hitch extension and its potential affect on vehicle behaviour makes me nervous. With your heavily loaded vehicle, if you managed to generate sway, it could get bad in an uncontrollable hurry, and you could take out other vehicles as well as your own.

Overall, I would say forget the combination. Either go camping, or move your stuff, not both.

I think this is a good summary of the important concerns.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

The uHaul cargo trailer comes with "built in automatic surge brakes" and while i would not put ANY faith in them actually working.... in a perfect world they'll be there, and will do *something* LOL.

The surge brakes (the same as used on other rentals and on many boat trailers) will work, but tend not to engage on light braking. One caution - they may engage due to engine braking to maintain speed on long downhill grades, which risks overheating the trailer brakes. It may not be a concern at all, but I suggest stopping to check the temperature of the trailer hubs after the first long grade if you do any mountain towing with a U-Haul. Also, any component of any U-Haul vehicle (truck or trailer) has likely received minimal maintenance and should be assumed to be suspect.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

As to the surge brakes, if I were you I would play with them a bit to see how they behave with your rig. They can get up to mischief with some tow setups - "surge" might give you a hint. The trailer brakes come on, which reduces the pressure from the hitch, which reduces the surge braking, which increases the hitch pressure, which increases braking, etc. Sometimes this can result in nasty oscillation of trailer braking which could cause an accident. I doubt that your rig would be sensitive to this, but I would play with it so you don't get any surprises.

While that's a potential concern, I don't think it is typically a problem - certainly I haven't experienced it with the U-Hauls that I have towed. The feedback described is normally stable. The term "surge" doesn't refer to that feedback, it refers to the trailer pushing forward on the towing hitch in response to the tow vehicle braking; Europeans commonly use this system (although mechanical rather than hydraulic) on travel trailers and other light trailers, with a higher trailer-to-tug mass ratio than typical here and much higher than with a two-ton trailer behind a loaded F-350, and they call it an "overrun" braking system.

[Brian B-P]

Here's a Plan B (or maybe you would want to consider it further down the list): the entire loaded camper plus a box containing all of the extra cargo for this trip could be loaded on a flatbed trailer. The loaded trailer would be trivially light compared to the towing capacity of the truck, and the (now empty of the camper) pickup box would be available for additional cargo space. The cargo box on the trailer could be one of U-Haul's U-Box containers. The biggest challenge might be finding a reasonable source of a one-way rental of a suitable flat-deck trailer (with about 20 feet of deck length for the 8-foot U-Box plus the camper)... assuming that you're not returning immediately.


Another option is to go with the original trailer-behind-camper plan, but use one of U-Haul's U-Boxes on the trailer that they have for them, instead of the 6X12 trailer (which is presumably heavier) or the 5X8 trailer (which is too small). The U-Box is about 5' X 8', but it's taller than the 5X8 cargo trailer so it might be adequate (it has 256 cubic feet of interior). If considering this, I would check the weight rating on the U-Box trailer to make sure that everything would be legal with your intended load. It's also worth considering just how much lighter the tongue weight would be, given the that U-Box trailer seems to be designed with the axle set back quite far.


Of course another plan is just to ship the stuff, not involving the truck and camper at all - that's actually what the U-Boxes are intended for, and there are other services... but of course they all have a significant cost.

[Losangeles]

Many thanks for all the good thoughts and info Brian. Much appreciated.

[azjack]

I had one ONCE, 27 years ago.
AZjack