that's interesting....I find it a bit scary

[caheaton]

Stopped overnight at the Kansas City KOA on our way back from our Escape's maiden trip and this fellow was parked a couple of sites over. He's pulling
what appears to be a Flagstaff Epro E19BH with a Hyundai Santa Cruz.

Given the numbers, I'd be a bit scary: trailer has an empty weight of 3311 lbs, empty hitch weight of 411 lbs and a GVWR of 4400 lbs. The Cruz is rated to tow 5000 lbs, but does sport a hefty payload capacity of 1600 ~ 1700 lbs...which is surprising.

I'd be nervous pulling such a trailer given its short wheelbase, but if you visit the Santa Cruz forums there are apparently a number of people who use them to tow small travel trailers.

[Selkirk]

There seems to be few other automotive topics that yield a such a wide array of opinions as tow vehicle capabilities.

Some are very comfortable regularly towing right at a TV's rated limit (if not beyond). Others believe that a 2000lb tent trailer should be hauled around by nothing smaller than a 3/4 ton truck.

When hitched to my E19, my current TV is at about 65% -70% of its tow capacity and over 80% of payload (with canopy and additional cargo in bed/cab). I've only been towing for two seasons, but have already concluded that my next TV will have substantially higher towing/payload capabilities.

I guess we all have our own tolerance for risk.....

[GinoandLinda]

We have friends in that insisted they could pull their 21’ Retro with a Toyota Highlander. They said it could tow 5000lbs and besides, it was a Toyota. Two transmissions later they bought an F150.

[BravoDeltaRomeo]

I don't like seeing people tow over their limits, close to the limits or 30+ foot trailers with a 1/2 ton and no WDS or Stabilizer bars. I don't care about the damage they are doing to their vehicles, I worry about being on the road with them when they loose control.

The same way I get pissed over every trip trough the ON highway and people are passing me on single lane with double lines and I'm either doing the speed limit. If they want to take risks and do damage to themselves, go ahead. But the moment you put me at risk, I take objection.

Our 2019 Tundra will tow anything we ever want hitch to it. I'll never attach a 32' trailer on the back, which will act as a giant sail in the wind, even though it's capable of towing it. I wouldn't feel comfortable towing that big a rig.

[Iowa Dave]

We have towed our 21c which weighs 4360 loaded for three weeks for roughly 65,000 miles
since the late summer of 2017. 87% of the 5.000 pound limit of the 2018 Toyota. I’ve had to make several evasive maneuvers and pulled in 70mph crosswinds. It just takes a feel for conditions. Road surface, good tires, spacial awareness and an understanding of the shiftable 8 speed transmission. 60 years of towing and not being in a hurry don’t hurt. YMMV.
Iowa Dave

[brroberts]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

We have towed our 21c which weighs 4360 loaded for three weeks for roughly 65,000 miles
since the late summer of 2017. 87% of the 5.000 pound limit of the 2018 Toyota. I’ve had to make several evasive maneuvers and pulled in 70mph crosswinds. It just takes a feel for conditions. Road surface, good tires, spacial awareness and an understanding of the shiftable 8 speed transmission. 60 years of towing and not being in a hurry don’t hurt. YMMV.
Iowa Dave

Wow, Dave!!! 65,000 miles in 3 weeks. Some trip huh?

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by brroberts

Wow, Dave!!! 65,000 miles in 3 weeks. Some trip huh?

Gee, my wife isn't happy if I want to do a 700 mile day.

Ron

[Centex]

I see lots of rigs that make me wonder if the driver is as relaxed as I am during and at the end of a day of towing.

And yeah, a few that incite me to really keep my distance.

Oh well, to each their own, so it goes.

[LRL]

Originally Posted by brroberts

Wow, Dave!!! 65,000 miles in 3 weeks. Some trip huh?

Agreed. I’d seldom done more than 3000 miles in one day. Quite impressed.

[hugh]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

We have towed our 21c which weighs 4360 loaded for three weeks for roughly 65,000 miles
since the late summer of 2017. 87% of the 5.000 pound limit of the 2018 Toyota. I’ve had to make several evasive maneuvers and pulled in 70mph crosswinds. It just takes a feel for conditions. Road surface, good tires, spacial awareness and an understanding of the shiftable 8 speed transmission. 60 years of towing and not being in a hurry don’t hurt. YMMV.
Iowa Dave

Agreed. The skill (or lack thereof) of the driver is as big of a factor in the overall safety of towing as the equipment. Any idiot can strap their trailer to a massive truck, but that doesn't automatically mean they're safer than a careful driver with a lighter weight vehicle.

[brroberts]

I did do 6000 miles in one day recently, but I was on an airplane……..

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by brroberts

Wow, Dave!!! 65,000 miles in 3 weeks. Some trip huh?

When I was in school English teachers needed an extra red pencil when they critiqued my writings. AWK AWK AWK, run on sentence, lack or agreement between subject and verb etc. They are all long gone now, I win. I passed out of sophomore English at Iowa State. Probably due to Sloe Gin.
Iowa Dave

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

When I was in school English teachers needed an extra red pencil when they critiqued my writings.

When we were away cruising on our boat we'd handwrite a lot of letters to friends. One was a teacher. When we'd return he'd give us back the letters so we could add them to our journal. He was a Chemistry teacher, not an English teacher, but looking through the letters was a bit embarrassing. Lot's of red ink.

Ron

[MrLynn]

"Lot's of red ink."

Incorrect plural.

[Iowa Dave]

Oh Goody An Wnglish teacher on the forum. I’m sure he will be willing to proofread Ron’s memoirs and mine when we write ours books.. For free of course.
Iowa Dave

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by MrLynn

"Lot's of red ink."

Incorrect plural.

Bad habits are hard to break.

Ron

[Micheal K]

Wheelbase seems to be the flavor du jour for criticizing tow vehicles that aren’t trucks, but it’s only one of several important factors for a stable towing experience.

It’s important to understand that any tv- trailer combination can become unstable beyond a certain speed. Some of the characteristics of a stable setup (able to be driven faster before becoming unstable) include:

1) A heavier tow vehicle relative to the mass of the trailer.
2) The center of gravity of the trailer is more forward (heavier tongue weight).
3) The rotational moment of inertia is lower (heavy items are in the middle and not at the ends of the trailer).
4) Vehicle wheelbase is longer.
5) The distance from the rear axle to the hitch point is decreased.
6) The center of gravity of the tow vehicle is lower.
7) The cornering stiffness of the trailer tires is higher.
8) The cornering stiffness of the tv tires is higher.

Personally, I think sufficiently rated suvs can be very good tow vehicles for smaller trailers and are probably a safer setup than most of the ¾ ton pickups towing toy haulers that seem to get a pass on the towing forums.

[Cathleen Shea]

We had a 2018 Toyota 4Runner, TRD OffRoad model. We traded it in February, this year, for a 2021 Toyota Tacoma TRD OffRoad model... in anticipation of our E19 due to be completed on 3 October. While I've seen people say that the 5000 lb tow capacity of the 4Runner is just fine for their E19... sorry, but I question that sanity. The upgrade gives us about 1000 lbs more safety margin, which we will NOT overload. Especially as beginners... I do not want to be that idiot, sideways, on the road.

[Iowa Dave]

I know of an Escape 21 owner who had a fairly new Ram Diesel pickup. It crapped out on him in the steep country east Tennessee and put him at considerable risk having to turn around and “limp” down the mountain. Got home and switched over to his old Forerunner which he’d towed the 21 with when he first got the 21. Rally visit went off without a problem and the Ram had a new owner shortly. Don’t sell Tojo short.
Personally we just got back from Nine days in the Bighorns with the Highlander and E21 Classic rolling 2,678 flawless miles. Both tug and trailer. Saw my brother up on the Poudre River in CO. Photo by my wife Rita.
Iowa Dave

[Cathleen Shea]

Sweet photo... in felt! I look forward to scenes like this once I reacquire a decent zoom lens.

I had a 1990 Ram W150. It had a great engine. I think I had only three minor repairs in 14 years... one transmission as a major overhaul. I traded the old beast for some needed roof work. Crappy paint, decent 318 engine. I wonder about these newfangled models, decades later.