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Old 07-18-2020, 10:59 AM   #21
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An older lady in a mobility cart doing her grocery shopping in Florida was verbally abused the other day by a store employee and another shopper because she wasn't wearing a mask. (There was no legal requirement in FL at the time.) She was quite upset afterward.
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If you feel you can't wear a mask don't go into a store. Every grocery store I know, you can order by phone or online and have curbside pickup.
The chart below tracks the daily hospitalizations and provides a 7-day average trend line based on cases reported by the Florida Department of Health (DOH) through July 17th.



More hospitalizations isn't because of more testing. More hospitalizations is only because the virus is spreading uncontrolled.

You can have the virus be asymptomatic and spread it. You shouldn't go shopping without a mask, because you risk spreading the virus to employees who stock and pick up the groceries for at risk people doing curbside pickup. You shouldn't go in a store without a mask because you risk contaminating the surface of products that are being picked up for at risk people doing curbside pickup. You shouldn't go shopping without a mask period.

Even Asymptomatic People Can Spread COVID-19 Within a Room
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Old 07-18-2020, 11:11 AM   #22
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My suggestions. We are in a trying time. Many of us have worn masks, face shields, steel toed
shoes, knee pads, heavy gloves, hearing protection, goggles, etc, just to avoid personal injury and not liked it. So now it’s necessary to make adjustments, be civil and realize that democracy means the greatest good for the greatest number. Vote, vote, vote, suck it up and carry on. You are strong, you don’t have to assert yourself, walk away and mutter f’n idiots. It’s easier on your blood pressure in the long run. Do not patronize dangerous places, vote with your dollars. That’s my stand. Don’t like it? Too bad. If you don’t get over it, I don’t care.
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Old 07-18-2020, 12:25 PM   #23
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Our daughter and family traveled last week to their new home in KS from GA. They wore masks at all stops. The nearly three year old loves hers so much and doesn't want to remove it even in the van. She wanted to sleep so just pulled it up over her eyes.
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:15 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
An older lady in a mobility cart doing her grocery shopping in Florida was verbally abused the other day by a store employee and another shopper because she wasn't wearing a mask. (There was no legal requirement in FL at the time.) She was quite upset afterward. Do ordinary people have the right to appoint themselves as self-righteous do-gooder 'covid cops'? When did public shaming and rudeness become socially acceptable?



My wife feels physically ill and nauseous if she wears a mask for more than a couple of minutes; I now fear for her safety if she were to go to the store alone without a mask, because too many yahoo zealots think they have the right to take matters into their own hands even when there's no law requiring mask use.


People need to remember that catching the virus is not an automatic death sentence (most people wind up with mild or no noticeable symptoms), and that it's none of their business what the other person wears or doesn't wear. (Well, except for pants...)
My wife has COPD and was recently treated for lung cancer and she wears a mask in public places . I have no more sympathy for those who choose to not wear a mask than I do for those who choose to drive while intoxicated
Like my Dad used to say “ If you’re looking for sympathy, you’ll find it between S_IT & SYPHILIS in the dictionary..
I don’t need a law or rule to make me do the right thing !!

PS ; We do our shopping online , it’s not that difficult !!
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:40 PM   #25
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Perhaps some people missed the point of my last post. Mask wearing should be an individual decision. Everyone should be free to choose whether to wear one or not. It has never (until very recently?) been "good manners" or acceptable social behavior to "shame" a person into altering his choice, to give dirty looks or make snide comments, or to become confrontational. Even walking up to a person and saying in a calm voice, "You should be wearing a mask," would have been off-limits behavior just a year or two ago.

People who don't wear masks have reasons for their actions. Their reasons aren't anyone else's business, let alone their decision. But the majority seem to have now decided to make it their business and to actively push back against anyone who isn't "complying" with the popular viewpoint. I lament this development. For one thing, it says that good manners are going "out the window". For another, once the precedent is set whereby the majority accept their role as "enforcement partners" of the majority opinion, it will not stop with masks. Next it will be, "everyone should get a Covid vaccine, and never mind that it hasn't been properly tested." After that it might be, "everyone should get a tracking device implanted," or who knows what else?

We would be better off as a society if we all took Ann Landers' most popular and frequent advice: "MYOB."

The online "Free Dictionary" has a section on idioms, and when one looks up the saying, "Live and Let Live," here is the entry:
live and let live
To be open-minded toward or tolerant of others.
Your daughter's not going to do everything the way you would—just live and let live.
I don't understand why people can't just live and let live instead of trying to bend everyone to their will.
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:52 PM   #26
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We would be better off as a society if we all took Ann Landers' most popular and frequent advice: "MYOB."
When you risk other people's health it becomes their business.
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Old 07-18-2020, 01:53 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
Perhaps some people missed the point of my last post. Mask wearing should be an individual decision. Everyone should be free to choose whether to wear one or not. It has never (until very recently?) been "good manners" or acceptable social behavior to "shame" a person into altering his choice, to give dirty looks or make snide comments, or to become confrontational. Even walking up to a person and saying in a calm voice, "You should be wearing a mask," would have been off-limits behavior just a year or two ago.

People who don't wear masks have reasons for their actions. Their reasons aren't anyone else's business, let alone their decision. But the majority seem to have now decided to make it their business and to actively push back against anyone who isn't "complying" with the popular viewpoint. I lament this development. For one thing, it says that good manners are going "out the window". For another, once the precedent is set whereby the majority accept their role as "enforcement partners" of the majority opinion, it will not stop with masks. Next it will be, "everyone should get a Covid vaccine, and never mind that it hasn't been properly tested." After that it might be, "everyone should get a tracking device implanted," or who knows what else?

We would be better off as a society if we all took Ann Landers' most popular and frequent advice: "MYOB."

The online "Free Dictionary" has a section on idioms, and when one looks up the saying, "Live and Let Live," here is the entry:
live and let live
To be open-minded toward or tolerant of others.
Your daughter's not going to do everything the way you would—just live and let live.
I don't understand why people can't just live and let live instead of trying to bend everyone to their will.
I read and understood your post , it’s just that I don’t accept your premise
Freedom of choice does not give you the freedom to harm others
Let’s just agree to disagree !
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
Perhaps some people missed the point of my last post. Mask wearing should be an individual decision. Everyone should be free to choose whether to wear one or not. It has never (until very recently?) been "good manners" or acceptable social behavior to "shame" a person into altering his choice, to give dirty looks or make snide comments, or to become confrontational. Even walking up to a person and saying in a calm voice, "You should be wearing a mask," would have been off-limits behavior just a year or two ago.

People who don't wear masks have reasons for their actions. Their reasons aren't anyone else's business, let alone their decision. But the majority seem to have now decided to make it their business and to actively push back against anyone who isn't "complying" with the popular viewpoint. I lament this development. For one thing, it says that good manners are going "out the window". For another, once the precedent is set whereby the majority accept their role as "enforcement partners" of the majority opinion, it will not stop with masks. Next it will be, "everyone should get a Covid vaccine, and never mind that it hasn't been properly tested." After that it might be, "everyone should get a tracking device implanted," or who knows what else?

We would be better off as a society if we all took Ann Landers' most popular and frequent advice: "MYOB."

The online "Free Dictionary" has a section on idioms, and when one looks up the saying, "Live and Let Live," here is the entry:
live and let live
To be open-minded toward or tolerant of others.
Your daughter's not going to do everything the way you would—just live and let live.
I don't understand why people can't just live and let live instead of trying to bend everyone to their will.
I am in general agreement with you. I wear a mask if I'm going inside any building where others are present. Not because I think it will protect me or others around me but to make others feel ok around me. I just don't need the hassle over a little thing such as a mask. I know by reading many studies on the effectiveness of mask materials that cloth or surgical masks provide minimal if any protection from the wearer or others near a wearer. My method of defense is to try to stay out of closed spaces and maintain distance from others. If outside I maintain distance and if need be, such as passing on a trail, limit the time of closeness to others. Distancing of less that at least 6 ft. isn't necessary if outside and the close encounter is as brief as possible such as in passing. The chance of getting a viral infection from such an encounter is magnitudes less likely than winning the lottery.
With all that being said. Staying in close contact with others for any prolonged length of time or in an enclosed area without a flow of fresh air is putting yourself at the greatest of risk.
I provide this opinion as my own. My takeaway is wear a mask but don't depend on it providing you or those around you any protection at all.
Heck have fun with it.
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:39 PM   #29
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This is so sad it reminds of a coworker I once admired and respected who has fallen into this same rabbit hole.

You need to specify the rabbit hole. Don't know which side you are on, since both sides are so convinced they are right.
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:41 PM   #30
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Please watch what you are posting, insulting others with a different point of view will be reason for deletion.


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Old 07-18-2020, 03:05 PM   #31
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Please watch what you are posting, insulting others with a different point of view will be reason for deletion.

Who are you addressing?
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:07 PM   #32
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:10 PM   #33
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I know by reading many studies on the effectiveness of mask materials that cloth or surgical masks provide minimal if any protection from the wearer or others near a wearer.
You must be reading different studies than I am . Here are a few sources:

Videos





Published articles

https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...sTextOnly=true
"Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individual"

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
"Overall, we find that combinations of various commonly available fabrics used in cloth masks can potentially provide significant protection against the transmission of aerosol particles."

Currently, due to lack of properly done studies on actual people, there is not a lot of direct evidence, but we know societies such as Thailand where people wear masks routinely through flu season have done much better with Covid-19. The graphic here was sent to me by a friend who is an epidemiologist in early March.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg masks or no masks.jpg (24.3 KB, 6 views)
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:24 PM   #34
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You must be reading different studies than I am .
I agree.

The simplest way to exemplify that wearing a mask cuts down on the transfer of viruses and bacteria, is that surgeons have been wearing mask for years.

Before the current disposable masks surgeons wore cloth masks. In real life, not just on TV shows.



Surgeons wear masks to keep from infecting the patient, not the other way around.

So when someone says there is no evidence that masks prevent the spread of diseases, do they believe that surgeons have been wearing masks for no reason?
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:27 PM   #35
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My wife has COPD and was recently treated for lung cancer and she wears a mask in public places . I have no more sympathy for those who choose to not wear a mask than I do for those who choose to drive while intoxicated
Like my Dad used to say “ If you’re looking for sympathy, you’ll find it between S_IT & SYPHILIS in the dictionary..
I don’t need a law or rule to make me do the right thing !!

PS ; We do our shopping online , it’s not that difficult !!
Steve my one daughter had COPD , she has now passed but not from the COPD and lost my youngest brother from a drunk driver on his way home from work . Many days I am glad my daughter doesn’t have to deal with this . To us it is common sense and we started wearing masks when they said you didn’t need to as well as the other protections mentioned . But I also understand some can’t wear a mask , one of my daughters can’t . Pat
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:39 PM   #36
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One thing about masks- well, two. Maybe I already said both. But first, tape across the nose prevents glasses fogging and gets a better seal than bendable wire does. And two, it should fit so that you can see it rise and fall as you breathe. That makes it substantially LESS comfortable but much more effective. I've been experimenting with layers to combat the discomfort part. T-shirt fabric as an inner layer is okay provided the outer layer breathes fairly well. Not sure that's so good but I figure breathing through any layers has to be better than breathing around them or taking the mask off. Tencel or tencel cotton is comfortable but seems a little less breathable. A layer of thin wool batting is surprisingly not that bad- it keeps the shape of a shaped mask better and provides an electrostatic layer.

And one more thing- we've been covering our coughs and coughing into our sleeve for years. If that's not effective- why were we doing it?

Ok, since I'm rambling- I'm getting to where I feel like I need a mask for everything because people are not good at social-distancing. They think two or three feet away is plenty. One thing I did appreciate camping was that most parents seem to have told their kids to stay away from other people's campsites which removed one potential source of exposure. Sadie has a six foot leash so they can visit at the end of her leash and still stay away from me. Maybe I'll get her a ten foot one.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:18 PM   #37
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Things are certainly different around here than what most of you all project as normal habit.

I have never even considered gloves or wipes when getting fuel, something I do with regularity.

Pretty much the only stores I go to are building supply stores, and there you will see about 10-20% at the most of people wearing masks. Myself, I just keep a distance. I also go mostly at 6-7am when customers are fewer.

I have gone in grocery stores a couple times, and there mask wearers are up to around 30%. People there are real good at keeping a distance.

Outside of shopping you see almost nobody wearing a mask. I just had a couple guys here to discuss some work, and though we never touched, nobody wore masks. I go daily for walks and see lots of other people. Nobody wears masks, they are just not needed if you keep that required 2m distance.

Shoot me if you wish, but I have not worn a mask (other than N95 ones for dust) since this Covid thing started. I have not used a hand sanitizer more than twice in my life, I much prefer washing my hands with soap. As far as physical touching goes, only close friends or family members see this happen with me, and for a while it was pretty much my wife only. Well okay, my grandson too as it is really hard to keep a kid under 2 away from me.

Alberta, population 4.43 million, did just have a few more deaths due to Covid after many weeks of none. That said, there are now 167 and the vast majority seniors in care homes.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:19 PM   #38
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When you risk other people's health it becomes their business.
Honestly, if that is an accurate way to look at things, then why haven't we been leaning on people to wear masks ever since masks were invented? Every time any of us goes out, we put people at risk of catching some germ or other from us. Whether pneumococcus, influenza, or just the 'common cold'... you name it, we might be unknowingly spreading it. And whatever we pass on by accident could be the last straw that does in some person with compromised immune system or co-morbidities. That is the situation we face with this virus. We might spread an illness. The odds are relatively low, as usual. Prior to this year, no one would have presumed to advocate masks on the basis that each of us was "risking other people's health" on a daily basis. This virus is not a death sentence! The risk to an average individual in average health is quite low, as it usually is with any virus. (Nearly 60% of US deaths chalked up to Covid have been in the 75+ age group.) The things that have changed are the attitudes and the rhetoric.


We all could start trading scientific data on one side and another, however I'm confident that no preconceptions will be altered. But I think that a word about operating rooms is in order. Surgical masks don't stop fine vapor particles all that well (especially smaller than 100 nm), but those particles aren't the big risk in an O.R. In the O.R., people are standing directly over a gaping surgical incision. Therefore the risk of large (non-vapor) droplets from a cough or sneeze being drawn by gravity into the wound is noteworthy and protection is called for. This risk to a patient with an open wound is considerably greater than the risk of a droplet settling onto a grocery store floor, a table, or other object where it could maybe, possibly be picked up by someone's hand and then maybe, possibly moved to a facial opening. Research shows that the vast majority of these types of viral infections come, not from touch, but from breathing in the fine vapor particles from normal breathing, particles which are able to pass through most masks and which then float on air currents because they're too tiny for gravity to draw them downward. The main point here is that we don't live and move in an operating room where the risk is high, so we don't need to dress like surgeons. But those of you who want to do so, go right ahead. I won't denigrate your choice.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:37 PM   #39
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We haven't been wearing masks routinely, in part because most of the viruses we have dealt with in the last 60 years have either been less serious or there has been a vaccine available or they aren't airborne. Measles is one that flies from person to person with little effort, but there has been a vaccine for fifty years. Flu is likely airborne, but there are vaccines, and it is seasonal. But in places like Hong Kong where people live very tightly packed mask use in the flu season has been standard. Possibly it should have been in some US cities.

You walk into an urgent care with a kid with a rash, and they hand the kid a mask in case it is contagious.

The other thing is that most of those diseases that are still around- colds and flu primarily, are either not too serious or serious but over and done. (Which flu can be, people at high risk tend to get pneumonia and die. Covid-19 creates long term complications in many people. Some people recover like it was the flu. Others are in the hospital for weeks or months and may have long term effects. It puts a much bigger strain on our medical system. People end up dying because of lack of care if there are too many sick at once.

Also, we have no other way to stop this thing until there is a vaccine. Stay at home, wash hands, wear a mask, avoid other people.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:59 PM   #40
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I’ve never viewed the mask issue as a freedom issue. Always seemed to me to be more of an issue of selflessness vs selfishness. Stay focused outward, not inward and the mask thing won’t be any big deal.

We'll all be sitting around the campfire in a few years telling tall mask tales when this is all said and done.
People still try and make light of a very serious pandemic, but once you know friends, family that have come down with this you’ll take a different view.

I don’t wish this on anyone and pray that all of our Escape family is able to stay safe and avoid this.
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