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Old 03-22-2020, 03:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by UncleTim View Post
What does watts translate to, using this water metaphor?
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Originally Posted by alanmalk View Post
To your water bill at the end of the month.
No, the bill is based only on volume of water, not the pressure at which it was delivered. The water volume (on the bill or not) corresponds to battery capacity (current in amps multiplied by time in hours, just as volumetric flow rate in whatevers per hour multiplied by hours of time flowing is the volume of water used in whatever volume unit you like). When you charge your battery with a current over a period of time, you're filling your electrical energy tank (metaphorically).
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Old 03-22-2020, 04:34 PM   #62
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No, the bill is based only on volume of water, not the pressure at which it was delivered. ...
Very true. Plus the bill is not based on the diameter of the pipe or hose that was used (aka "resistance"). It is a grand total and you are paying based on this number.

If you are paying for electricity it is convenient to say "you pay us (the Electric Company) based on the grand total of kilowatt-hours". But kWh is just a shortcut for the total energy ( 1 kWh = 3.6 mega joules ). Note - no reference to time in joules, just a grand total number.

I would maintain that joules of power is conceptually the same as gallons(liters) of water.
At this point in the thread I can practically hear the eyes rolling in their sockets...
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Old 03-23-2020, 12:49 AM   #63
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Very true. Plus the bill is not based on the diameter of the pipe or hose that was used (aka "resistance"). It is a grand total and you are paying based on this number.

If you are paying for electricity it is convenient to say "you pay us (the Electric Company) based on the grand total of kilowatt-hours". But kWh is just a shortcut for the total energy ( 1 kWh = 3.6 mega joules ). Note - no reference to time in joules, just a grand total number.
I agree with that.

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I would maintain that joules of power is conceptually the same as gallons(liters) of water.
But that doesn't work as an extension of the voltage => pressure and current => flow analogy, because the electrical bill is for energy, not total charge (integrated current). 12 kWh at home is 100 amp-hours at 120 volts, and that is very different from 100 amp-hours at 12 volts (only 1.2 kWh) into the trailer's battery; voltage matters, and is an integral part of the energy value. The electrical bill is for energy, not charge; the water bill is for volume (like charge), not the energy taken to push that volume into your house.
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Old 03-23-2020, 05:01 AM   #64
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Uh...I like turtles.
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Old 03-23-2020, 07:05 AM   #65
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Anyone know why there are water towers in use in smaller municipalities? Electricity rates is cheaper at night, so they fill up the tanks then and let gravity perform its job during the day...al least that is what I was told?
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:33 AM   #66
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Anyone know why there are water towers in use in smaller municipalities? Electricity rates is cheaper at night, so they fill up the tanks then and let gravity perform its job during the day...al least that is what I was told?
Regardless of when they fill it up or how, they do to establish a hydraulic gradient line to all the water lines serving the city. With solar pumps now and battery storage systems you can charge in the day and pump at night, or any other time.

If that tower is 200 feet in the air (that is modest), then you have established 86.6 pounds of head (pressure). Usually you need more than that because when you run water thru a service line you develop friction. Different coefficients (c value) for different materials. Copper is one of the best. So you lose pressure.

200 x .433 = 86.6 pounds of pressure.

So it is an easy way to pressurize the towns water lines and supply constant pressure and pump as you stated.

Note of interest. In my town the water travels down several thousand feet, from the continental divide. We have step down stations and a very sophisticated water delivery system. But the city routinely experiences streets and intersections that blow up and flood the entire area. All because of severe head due to elevation. The pipes can't take it.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:11 AM   #67
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Uh...I like turtles.
I knew that would happen!



And on further investigation I realize now that a joule of energy requires a voltage value.
So UncleTim is correct.


Perhaps I should have said garden hose "watts" are more like the time it takes to fill the trailer tank.
Even though the tank holds 25 gallons, the faster you can fill it, the more "watts" you are using.


I'm going back to isolation now so you can all eat breakfast in peace.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:36 AM   #68
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Anyone know why there are water towers in use in smaller municipalities? Electricity rates is cheaper at night, so they fill up the tanks then and let gravity perform its job during the day...al least that is what I was told?
That makes sense now, but water towers were around before there were electric pumps to fill them, and even now many areas do not have lower electricity rates at night.

Water towers are only common in smaller communities because a big city would need too many of them, or towers which are too big (and too tall, in order to provide enough pressure for tall buildings), so they just give up on towers and run pumps continuously.

A house with a well normally uses a tank with an air cushion to maintain pressure (a big version fo the little accumulators which some people have added to their Escapes), rather than an elevated tank; however, in some places rooftop tanks are actually used.

An RV could use the water tower idea (for actual water), by putting the fresh water tank on the roof, allowing gravity to push it out faucets, and skipping the water pump. I'm not recommending this...

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Originally Posted by UncleTim View Post
Regardless of when they fill it up or how, they do to establish a hydraulic gradient line to all the water lines serving the city.
...
If that tower is 200 feet in the air (that is modest), then you have established 86.6 pounds of head (pressure).
Yes, water towers are reservoirs of water (just as a battery is a reservoir of charge) with elevation allowing it to come out with pressure (just as a battery stores charge with voltage). Raising the water gives it potential energy, just as forcing it into a pressurized container would. Voltage is properly known as electrical potential, but it similarly represents the potential for charge to deliver energy when it is release.

Using energy to pump water up into a water tower is a good analogy for pushing (with voltage) charge into a battery. The water level in the tower represent the battery voltage, with the level going down to the bottom of the elevated tank corresponding to battery voltage getting down to the voltage at which it is considered discharged. A high-capacity battery is a big (wide) water tank; a higher-voltage battery (e.g. 24 volts instead of 12 volts) would be a taller tower.

So, yes...
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Originally Posted by UncleTim View Post
Calculate at .433 pounds per vertical feet which equals head (in a hydraulic gradient line), that builds up p.s.i. pretty fast. Would pressure equate to a power station?

I have always wondered about this analogy.
... a hydroelectric power station taking water from an elevated reservoir to produce electrical energy (behind a dam or waterfall) is analogous to a battery delivering charge from some voltage (potential). Stored energy in the water reservoir is the product of volume and potential energy per volume (which depends on height, acceleration of gravity, and density); stored energy in the battery is the product of charge (in units such as amp-hours) and potential (voltage).


Analogies can be very useful to help understand technology which is hard to grasp (anything electrical or sub-atomic) by comparing it to technology with which people are more familiar (water flow in this case). They can get very convoluted because the mapping between the real world and the analogy never works out entirely nicely, and because most people don't understand the "familiar" technology as well as they initially expect.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:10 PM   #69
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Western Pond Turtles and Painted Turtles are native to Washington, but Pond Sliders are invasive.
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Old 03-24-2020, 02:26 PM   #70
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Do your Western Painted turtles have that multi pointed, splotch, dark overlay on the underside?

That's the way we tell between Eastern and Western varieties.

If you're diving or snorkeling, you can see it when they surface above you.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:40 PM   #71
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Do your Western Painted turtles have that multi pointed, splotch, dark overlay on the underside?

That's the way we tell between Eastern and Western varieties.

If you're diving or snorkeling, you can see it when they surface above you.

I didn’t know, so looked it up. According to the inter webs, the Western variant’s bottom shell has a large colored splotch that spreads to the edges (further than the midland) and often has red hues.
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