Current Management does not support the Escape Family

[DT6]

I know I may raise some hackles criticizing Escape in this post, so let me offer that this has to do with the new ownership and how they react to issues and promises regarding those issues, not the trailers themselves. I also hope this will give them some pause and cause them to change their behavior. There are also many recent posts that are related to this issue, most notably Escapes response to solar panels detaching and flying off.


We placed our order for our Escape19 with the previous ownership (Reace and Tammy). Tammy answered most of our calls and worked over our build sheet with us. She identified options that we could not defer if we wanted them, and others that she said Escape would be happy to install later (extra solar panel, under carriage insulation, etc.) if we brought the trailer back. It was a great buying experience and we felt like we were joining the "Escape family".

Our pickup experience turned out to not be great (see my post from a couple of years ago "off the ball" regarding the trailer coming off the hitch), but it was under the new ownership as Reece and Tammy had turned it over just prior to our delivery. As I noted in that post, Karl's response on the phone was less than sympathetic. But Trevor and another employee stepped in and very thoughtfully took care of everything, so we chalked it up to an error to the guy who drove it across the border and showed us how to hook it up to our truck. However, I should have taken Karl's reaction as an omen.

A short time after delivery we noticed the drawer rails on two of our drawers were not working properly. I tried some adjustments, and finally got it so we could work the drawers but we had to be very careful each time to ensure they did not come off the rail and get stuck. I called Dustin at the Escape parts department and explained the issue and was told they could fix it as it was still under warranty.

We were in the middle of a move from Virginia to Oregon and could not make it up there right away then COVID hit and the border was closed. I called Dustin at least TWICE over the next several months to confirm this issue as was told "I've got it in the notes, we will take care of it after COVID". We had such a pleasant buying experience, that I did not give much thought to getting his statement in writing. After all, we were part of the Escape Family right? so I felt I could trust him and saw no reason to get it in writing.

Then two things happened that I think align with other signs of poor management (several regarding delivery QA, and a recent post regarding solar panels becoming detached).

1. Escape announced that it was no longer going to do after-delivery installation of accessories. I've mentioned this before in a post, and my objection is that they did not give any notice to existing owners like us who were told at the time of recent purchase that we could have some accessories installed later (we wanted an extra solar panel installed and possibly the under carriage spray insulation). I don't look at it as a promise made by Tammy, it was a promise made by ESCAPE, and in my experience new owners should be bound by the promises of the previous ownership.

I wrote Karl about this and received a polite but dismissive response where he spends his time ignoring my point and writing about how they had to expand production, and we can get most of that stuff installed elsewhere. I've posted the email at the bottom if anyone cares to read it. Essentially, I told him that current owners should be given a reasonable grace period to have options installed at the factory before the new policy went into effect. We also could not get back to the factory until the COVID travel ban was lifted. Nope - he does not care what promises were made. So Tammy did not lie, but Karl made it so by dismissing her promise.

2. I emailed Dustin in the parts department several weeks ago and said we were planning to go camping in BC sometime in October and we could bring the trailer by to have the drawer rails repaired. I received a email response that said, "we have no record of this and it is out of warranty". I know we are talking about a $10 set of rails here being the likely culprit, but the issue is that they promised to repair it. I was pretty upset about being so blatantly lied to that I called and asked to speak with Dustin's boss.

His boss was even more unsympathetic and borderline rude on the phone. He said flat out, "there is nothing in the notes sir, and it is out of warranty. We don't even carry that bracket any longer. You can buy new brackets at Camping World for $20 or so. We are not going to fix it, it is out of warranty and we are a manufacturing facility."

So either Dustin flat out lied or he was instructed by his boss to say there were no notes after all and it would not be covered. Either is unacceptable.

Let me be clear that it is not the few dollars it took for me to get this problem fixed that is the issue. It is the fact that they lied and over a small issue at that and refused to even work with me to come to a solution. Their solution was to infer you could not possibly have heard Dustin say that twice on two separate occasions, never happened so go away we never promised anything.

I do not have a problem with them trying to maximize production and make a profit. I don't care if they make 200-percent profit or more, we pay what the market demands at any point in time - fine. But don't promise me something and then lie about it.

We currently have a 21 on order that we made prior to all of this mess, but now I'm questioning that decision. Overall, they still make a good trailer but I cannot trust the management any longer and I definitely do not feel they are any part of an Escape Family. They are now a “Manufacturing Facility”. Anyone can be nice when things are easy, but you really get a sense of someone when they have to address issues (large ones like solar panels or small ones like drawer slides).

I sincerely hope that this post, along with other posts critical of the actions of Karl and current management will force them to look in the mirror and make some changes in how they interact with customers. My extensive background in reviewing manufacturing processes tells me this really won’t cost them much if anything. If it does cost them something, they should be accounting for such future unexpected expenses in their pricing, and not making up for it by not addressing legitimate warranty claims or prior ownership commitments. I can get treated like this by a dealer or manufacturer in the US, I don't have to go to Canada, which is where we went in the hope of avoiding such behavior.

Fortunately this FORUM is very much an Escape Family , and we have received a ton of beneficial advice from everything to mods to travel destinations and have tried to reciprocate whenever possible. Our continued thanks to every one of you!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is Karl’s email response to my request for a grace period for current owners regarding after-deliver accessory installs:

Hi Duncan,
Thank you for your email re after market installations at Escape. We still support for warranty but find ourselves in the position where we do not have the resources to act as an aftermarket installer. Fortunately the Escape is relatively easy to work on and most RV repair shops can complete the same installations as us. I appreciate this is not ideal, and not what we have done in the past.
We found ourselves between a rock and hard place, and the decision is to support Warranty and stop aftermarket installs. We have also stopped telling customers that Escape would complete the aftermarket installation work to avoid any future disappointments.
Warm regards,
Karl

[Greg and Kathy]

I sure hope you feel better after your Rant.
Personally I don’t see the issue. They have changed owners and yes have focused on production as that’s where the money to stay in business is at. Most people would never even consider travelling back to escape for a broken drawer slide. Why did you not just ask them to send you out a set. That’s what most have done. Sorry if you disagree with me but if all you have is 2 broken drawer slides after 2 years consider yourself blessed

[Donna D.]

I've said the best two days of owning nearly anything are the day you get it and the day the warranty runs out. Then it's ALL on you.

I understand your frustration. Fuel alone wouldn't make it worthwhile to ME, to take the trailer back to ETI for a couple of drawer slides. IMHO, if it was a major appliance, like the A/C and I lived within a days drive, then heck yes. Anything much less, I'd do it myself or find a repair place. Mobile RV repairs?

Years ago, I learned after placing a phone call with a business and getting an agreement to perform any action that benefits ME or in your case warranty work, I immediately send an e-mail.

As per our phone conversation this day at ... this time, you agreed to...

I do this to document the phone conversation. It used to be a person could just write down, who they talked to and the date and time and that was good enough. No longer. Document, document, document and an email does that.

Peace.

[MyronL]

I think your experience reaches an honest, entirely reasonable, very regrettable conclusion. Yet, brand loyalty does have its limits - no one wishes to see it. I have not had repair issues so petty I couldn't handle them myself. No doubt though, worth watching out for. Keep the faith.

[gbaglo]

When one of my folding shelf supports broke ( I leaned too hard ), I ordered the parts from North Shore RV ( about a mile from me ). There is no way I would drive an hour and a half to ETI, even if they provided the parts gratis.
But, I don't think that is the point of the OP.

[UncleTim]

I agree with Myron.

It lessens the relationship to the manufacturer.

In fact there is no relationship anymore.

This is the main reason I probably will not go to Osoyoos. Why bother?

You want to focus on making money while sacrificing your relationship with your customer? Okay!

[Bobbie54]

I'm disappointed in their lack of continued support especially regarding the Suburban cooktop. It's not like it just doesn't work- it is an actual danger to current owners with that stove and I don't believe a temporary fix will mitigate that danger. I do get that it is not a warranty item but I think they should be sending out a warning to all owners who have that cooktop installed and at the least offer to replace it at cost. A service shop repair isn't going to solve the problem because it will simply recur due to the defective flanged tubing. I have to assume Suburban manufacturing is at fault due to some recent change as these stoves have been in use for 3-4 years at least- why are explosions only happening now?

They've changed cooktops- so have tacitly admitted that there is an issue-and I have it in writing that I requested a replacement and was refused. I'm not going to use the cooktop so that won't really help me, anyway, it was in case I wanted to sue them after an injury. I'm not going to replace it for awhile as I want to see if Suburban does eventually issue a recall.

[LarryandLiz]

Hi DT6

I read Karl's email response to you. and didn't find it dismissive. He explains why ETI doesn't do after-market installs.

We forum members would need to read your part of the email exchange to see if he ignores the main point of your email. Your OP re the email in my view should have had the complete email - both parts.

I agree with the points Donna D makes above about getting things in writing.

and I suppose the broader issue when management/owners change is can the new owners change direction to focus on being a manufacturing company. I guess they can but its' going to sting people far from ETI who have to rely on themselves or other RV shops.

I have a story myself about how ETI changed and this was before the ownership change
After a few years - well after warranty expiry - I phoned ETI to schedule brake service, thinking I'd just be paying labour & material. In fact one of the reasons we purchased from ETI was that I assumed I could drive by the shop whenever I needed pretty much anything. (I live an hour or so from ETI)

Reace took the call and told me ETI no longer did any service work. I pushed back (politely) saying one of the reasons I'd gone with Escape was thinking I could get the trailer serviced. Reace very politely explained that ETI had changed its' focus. And during the conversation he wondered about the possibility that his father-in-law might be available to service my brakes for me. I remember his father-in-law, with a great sense of humour, as one of the ETI guys who was very involved in customer service. Anyway, I didn't pursue that option. I got my son-in-law (a licensed auto mechanic) to service the brakes

[cdmixer]

Originally Posted by DT6

I know I may raise some hackles criticizing Escape in this post, so let me offer that this has to do with the new ownership and how they react to issues and promises regarding those issues, not the trailers themselves. I also hope this will give them some pause and cause them to change their behavior. There are also many recent posts that are related to this issue, most notably Escapes response to solar panels detaching and flying off.


We placed our order for our Escape19 with the previous ownership (Reace and Tammy). Tammy answered most of our calls and worked over our build sheet with us. She identified options that we could not defer if we wanted them, and others that she said Escape would be happy to install later (extra solar panel, under carriage insulation, etc.) if we brought the trailer back. It was a great buying experience and we felt like we were joining the "Escape family".

Our pickup experience turned out to not be great (see my post from a couple of years ago "off the ball" regarding the trailer coming off the hitch), but it was under the new ownership as Reece and Tammy had turned it over just prior to our delivery. As I noted in that post, Karl's response on the phone was less than sympathetic. But Trevor and another employee stepped in and very thoughtfully took care of everything, so we chalked it up to an error to the guy who drove it across the border and showed us how to hook it up to our truck. However, I should have taken Karl's reaction as an omen.

A short time after delivery we noticed the drawer rails on two of our drawers were not working properly. I tried some adjustments, and finally got it so we could work the drawers but we had to be very careful each time to ensure they did not come off the rail and get stuck. I called Dustin at the Escape parts department and explained the issue and was told they could fix it as it was still under warranty.

We were in the middle of a move from Virginia to Oregon and could not make it up there right away then COVID hit and the border was closed. I called Dustin at least TWICE over the next several months to confirm this issue as was told "I've got it in the notes, we will take care of it after COVID". We had such a pleasant buying experience, that I did not give much thought to getting his statement in writing. After all, we were part of the Escape Family right? so I felt I could trust him and saw no reason to get it in writing.

Then two things happened that I think align with other signs of poor management (several regarding delivery QA, and a recent post regarding solar panels becoming detached).

1. Escape announced that it was no longer going to do after-delivery installation of accessories. I've mentioned this before in a post, and my objection is that they did not give any notice to existing owners like us who were told at the time of recent purchase that we could have some accessories installed later (we wanted an extra solar panel installed and possibly the under carriage spray insulation). I don't look at it as a promise made by Tammy, it was a promise made by ESCAPE, and in my experience new owners should be bound by the promises of the previous ownership.

I wrote Karl about this and received a polite but dismissive response where he spends his time ignoring my point and writing about how they had to expand production, and we can get most of that stuff installed elsewhere. I've posted the email at the bottom if anyone cares to read it. Essentially, I told him that current owners should be given a reasonable grace period to have options installed at the factory before the new policy went into effect. We also could not get back to the factory until the COVID travel ban was lifted. Nope - he does not care what promises were made. So Tammy did not lie, but Karl made it so by dismissing her promise.

2. I emailed Dustin in the parts department several weeks ago and said we were planning to go camping in BC sometime in October and we could bring the trailer by to have the drawer rails repaired. I received a email response that said, "we have no record of this and it is out of warranty". I know we are talking about a $10 set of rails here being the likely culprit, but the issue is that they promised to repair it. I was pretty upset about being so blatantly lied to that I called and asked to speak with Dustin's boss.

His boss was even more unsympathetic and borderline rude on the phone. He said flat out, "there is nothing in the notes sir, and it is out of warranty. We don't even carry that bracket any longer. You can buy new brackets at Camping World for $20 or so. We are not going to fix it, it is out of warranty and we are a manufacturing facility."

So either Dustin flat out lied or he was instructed by his boss to say there were no notes after all and it would not be covered. Either is unacceptable.

Let me be clear that it is not the few dollars it took for me to get this problem fixed that is the issue. It is the fact that they lied and over a small issue at that and refused to even work with me to come to a solution. Their solution was to infer you could not possibly have heard Dustin say that twice on two separate occasions, never happened so go away we never promised anything.

I do not have a problem with them trying to maximize production and make a profit. I don't care if they make 200-percent profit or more, we pay what the market demands at any point in time - fine. But don't promise me something and then lie about it.

We currently have a 21 on order that we made prior to all of this mess, but now I'm questioning that decision. Overall, they still make a good trailer but I cannot trust the management any longer and I definitely do not feel they are any part of an Escape Family. They are now a “Manufacturing Facility”. Anyone can be nice when things are easy, but you really get a sense of someone when they have to address issues (large ones like solar panels or small ones like drawer slides).

I sincerely hope that this post, along with other posts critical of the actions of Karl and current management will force them to look in the mirror and make some changes in how they interact with customers. My extensive background in reviewing manufacturing processes tells me this really won’t cost them much if anything. If it does cost them something, they should be accounting for such future unexpected expenses in their pricing, and not making up for it by not addressing legitimate warranty claims or prior ownership commitments. I can get treated like this by a dealer or manufacturer in the US, I don't have to go to Canada, which is where we went in the hope of avoiding such behavior.

Fortunately this FORUM is very much an Escape Family , and we have received a ton of beneficial advice from everything to mods to travel destinations and have tried to reciprocate whenever possible. Our continued thanks to every one of you!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is Karl’s email response to my request for a grace period for current owners regarding after-deliver accessory installs:

Hi Duncan,
Thank you for your email re after market installations at Escape. We still support for warranty but find ourselves in the position where we do not have the resources to act as an aftermarket installer. Fortunately the Escape is relatively easy to work on and most RV repair shops can complete the same installations as us. I appreciate this is not ideal, and not what we have done in the past.
We found ourselves between a rock and hard place, and the decision is to support Warranty and stop aftermarket installs. We have also stopped telling customers that Escape would complete the aftermarket installation work to avoid any future disappointments.
Warm regards,
Karl

DT6 some of your issues are similar to what I have experienced now replacing a double window due to defect in window. This thing nickels and dimes you and with no reliable repair shops nearby your on your own. Don’t know what’s worse the ads on this forum or the SAME people who attack you for your real life opinions.

[Bakes99]

When we purchased our trailer mid last year, we were told by new management that if we wanted anything extra done, we could just make an appointment to bring it back. At the time we were thinking about adding a storage door at the rear. That’s not happening now and certainly not something I would be comfortable doing, myself.

ETI is really no different then any other RV company, and may be falling behind in the customer service front. You are not part of a family because you purchased an Escape. This image that they are anything more than an RV manufacturer is not the reality. I’ve had better luck getting service from stick built dealers, at least in my area. (I’m aware that they are not a dealer, the way other dealers are, but that may be to the customers disadvantage) I’m also of the opinion that Escape has benefited from the image put forward by the previous owners. Just my opinion.

[cpaharley2008]

I think a lot of the negativity will decrease over time of ownership and in a couple of years probably disperse itself. Meanwhile. enjoy a quality product while you can, you never know what the future may bring.......

[Iowa Dave]

Owning an 8 year old trailer I know we are on our own. I wouldn’t own a trailer, a mower, a boat or many other things that I did not think I could repair on my own, with help of friends or at a local shop. I am not a fan of changes and things that become obsolete due to manufacturing changes but sadly that’s the world today. I had two Dodge pickups in a row. They treated me pretty well but did have some problems long out
of warranty. Overall costs per mile were not out of line and they never fully broke down out on the highway. But I thought there might be something better so I didn’t buy a third Dodge which by that time had become RAM. Sorry to hear folks are having problems but Karl is right about one thing, you can either fix it yourself or get it done locally. You can learn, you can practice, you can buy tools that you need or rent them. I don’t like being lied to any more than anyone else. It doesn’t feel good. Hang in there and vote with your dollars. Get by with a little help from your friends. The forum with thousands of folks with both on the ground experience and technical knowledge that they are willing to share are a very good specific resource. I can tell you that when I give advice, often as a PM because folks don’t like to ask “dumb questions”, and later I get a thank you message because something worked out, it feels pretty good.
Iowa Dave

[DT6]

Hi Larry and Liz,

I would have provided my email to Karl, but I used the on-line email on the Escape web page and I did not copy it prior to sending. Unfortunately I don't know of a way to retrieve it, so all I have is Karl's response which did not include the text from my original inquiry.

Essentially I told him that I believed Escape should stand behind the previous promises of being able to take the trailer back for some mods, or at least provide a notice to owners that they were going to stop doing this and give us some time to make an appointment for the mods before they ceased doing it. That is a pretty good summary of what I sent him, sorry I don't have the original. If you know of a way to retrieve it please let me know and I'll give it a try.

When I first read his email I thought it was polite, but it did not sit right. So I put it down and read it again later and what I found "dismissive" (maybe I used the wrong word here) was that he didn't address my issue/recommendation. At the end, he even stated that "we have stopped telling customers that Escape would complete the aftermarket installation work to avoid any future disappointments." According to one response here above, they continued to make this promise even last year, so it was not just a promise from Reace and Tammy, but Karl as well since the practice continued after ownership transfer.


There was also no apology or acknowledgement/understanding that he was pulling the rug out from under existing customers who had been promised this option.

Regarding some other feedback, I totally agree that after warranty it is up to the owner to either fix themselves or find a place to have it done, and I normally get email or other written confirmation when I think it is needed. I obviously misjudged that here.

I want to reiterate that the cost of the part or even driving there to have it fixed are not the point of my post, and disappointing that several seem to want to make it so. The point was simply that I was lied to on several occasions when it was never necessary. I like working with people to find solutions and I certainly would have been willing to work with Dustin's boss to come to one - much like what you did with Reace on getting your brakes done. There was absolutely no willingness on their part to work with me at all. I've worked retail before and would never treat anyone that way, at least until they got to the point where they become completely unreasonable and unwilling to discuss and I go out of my way to never get to that point in a discussion.

So I don't hate the guy, and I don't think he is evil or anything like that. I do question his business ethics in standing behind what his company says. I posted this so that new buyers can be better informed and hopefully do a better job of taking care of themselves before delivery. I have a 21 on order, and still take part in the ambassador program (spent an hour with a couple last weekend) so it would seem I still trust the general build, just not as much as I used to and certainly not more than any other manufacturer.

As Iowa Dave said, rely on your friends in the Forum. You guys are absolutely super and have helped me immensely in the past (even this past week). I'll just be relying on the Forum exclusively from now on. Thanks again everyone and I only hope my responses are helpful and address the issue being put forward.

[J&B Mitt]

I guess all this is a caveat to potential Escape buyers. There are risks in the scheme of buying an Escape directly from the factory.

If I go to my local RV dealer and purchase a stickie made in Elkhart, for better or worse, I’m creating a relationship between me and a dealer that can service my trailer, e.g. warranty repairs. I’d probably get preferential service over… say… Escape owners and other riff-raff that DIDN’T purchase from the local dealer.

[Rossue]

Ha ha- here's an example of some double talk. I got involved in this and took ETI to task over their Deposit Policy and it made a difference. Karl parrots the same drivel he fed me even after relenting. They need a new Chief IMO.

D......,



I have reviewed the situation and have a resolution. A lost production slot costs us more than double the deposit amount, most folks do not know that an empty slot means 280 hours of

direct labour cost. Hence the standard practice to retain $2000 USD in the event of cancellation after the agreement is signed off. I am always keen to fill production slots and never like holding onto a customer deposit, nobody feels good in this situation

where everyone loses.



In this case we are fortunate that another customer was ready to take the production slot and make their options selections in a very short time period. There is still the matter of

the our internal time and pre purchased materials some of which we can reuse.



I believe a fair and reasonable approach is to return $1500, we will retain $500 for the above. I will have the team process this for you asap.



Warmest regards,



Karl









From: D


Sent: Monday, August 31, 2020 3:50 PM


To: Karl Kenny <karl@escapetrailer.com>


Subject: Escape 19 ft











Karl,





I am disappointed in the EscapeTrailer Company. I realize that I should bear accountability and I did sign the build sheet. Let me put a face on this request. My husband and I are seniors, 78 and 67. We wanted an Escape trailer and

were excited. After we signed the build sheet, we had 2nd thoughts. I immediately contacted Escape with emails and phone calls to try to resolve this issue. I also had someone who would have purchased the trailer and would have paid me the deposit. But,

I could not get anyone to contact me. I am requesting the $2000 back. Obviously, we need it. $2000 is a lot to keep, knowing you have no problem selling trailers at this time. I admit I made an error. But, I would like to see this resolved.

[EdColorado]

And when Thor Industries buys ETI, everyone will look back at today as those good ‘ol days.

[gbaglo]

If one signs a contract by making a deposit, one would expect the contract to be fulfilled. I'm curious how some would post if ETI said the price of the trailer was now double, even though you had a contract.
Now, that is double-talk.

[Rossue]

Hello? When you have over a year wait how does the 280 hour B.S. compute? You're right though, I called the B.C. office that handles this and they said basically "Yeah, whatever the contract sez". Wouldn't be the case in a lot of Consumer Protection states in the U.S.- that's fo' sho! And that is because that practice essentially represents a forfeiture and most courts "abhor forfeitures". Biz Law 101.

[Ron in BC]

Since I'm an owner who has purchased an Escape from both the former era and the current era I've had experience with both situations and don't think the rose colored view of the former era against the business practices of the current era is all that valid.

I won't mention any dealings with the first case but I will say what my experience has been with the current owners.

I had two major equipment failures with my 21. Neither issue remotely was caused by ETI.

In the first instance Karl went above and beyond and replaced the component with a higher level one even though the root cause of the failure wasn't clear.

In the second case Dustin referred me to the manufacturer. There was a delay and no response from the manufacturer. Dustin sent a follow-up inquiry on my original report of a problem. His inquiry was forwarded to the manufacturer and that resulted in a happy resolution for the problem.

ETI does log calls and does follow-up on issues that have been reported. They didn't initially but they've been doing that for at least a year.

Your experience may differ.

Ron

[Centex]

Please understand and accept that I'm not discounting or judging the OP's (or anyone's) heartfelt frustrations nor endorsing any of ETI's past or present behavior, but I am compelled to opine ...

Originally Posted by DT6

... It was a great buying experience and we felt like we were joining the "Escape family". ...
... After all, we were part of the Escape Family right? ...

IMO marketing platitudes notwithstanding, construing a business transaction as anything remotely resembling a marriage / family union is almost assuredly fraught with eventual disappointment just as is construing a marriage / family union as a business transaction.

There, I feel better having expressed it, thanks for the outlet, I'll crawl back in my cubby now and leave this topic to others.

Sincere Good Luck and Best Wishes to all Escape customers and owners (I R 1 )