Propane safety

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

With the furnace the solid items take quite a while to warm. We usually wait until it gets 80 inside before turning off....

Perry

Seriously, 80 degrees? We get too toasty at 60 in trailer after turning on in morning when starting at 44 or so.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Seriously, 80 degrees? We get too toasty at 60 in trailer after turning on in morning when starting at 44 or so.

Yup! With a really cold trailer it still cools from 80 to the 60's quickly, but the object is to heat the solids in the trailer, so the trailer is comfy. That's why we use the Mr Buddy to warm a cold camper, not the furnace. The furnace is too inefficient for that job. TETO!

Enjoy,

Perry

[Rossue]

What solids?

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

Anyone considering a catalytic propane aka Buddy heater, please understand how much humidity they output. Every small green tank used outputs 3 cups of water in the form of water vapor. If you're concerned about condensation and mold, you don't want to go anywhere near a catalytic propane heater.

The stock propane furnace heats the trailer so quickly I don't see why you would need a different propane heater.

Yes, if you don't vent a catalytic heater you'll have some humidity, but even then it's not even close to boiling water for coffee in the morning. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. We actually use one and have yet to have the problems those who don't use one maintain exist.

When we get into our camper in 30 degree weather I wish the furnace heated the trailer as fast as you claim. That's one reason for our Mr Buddy. The furnace might be fast enough for you, but not for us.

Occasionally we use the Mr Buddy to quickly warm the camper up, and a low output Martin catalytic heater instead of the furnace when we don't have enough ah's left in the battery.

Yes, we properly vent and have two CO detectors. We understand the chemistry involved.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Rossue

What solids?

It's not just air you need to warm up, but wood, plastic, countertop, rugs, etc. If you don't get them warm they'll continue to keep the camper cold, so the quicker you heat the camper the more uniform the temperature.

Enjoy,

Perry

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Yes, if you don't vent a catalytic heater you'll have some humidity, but even then it's not even close to boiling water for coffee in the morning. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. We actually use one and have yet to have the problems those who don't use one maintain exist.

Every one pound green propane canister is converted into 3 cups of water, it's chemistry *. Boiling water for coffee releases no where near that amount of moisture. Not to mention when you are boiling water for coffee, you should be actively venting that moisture with the fan in your range hood.

Originally Posted by Perryb67

When we get into our camper in 30 degree weather I wish the furnace heated the trailer as fast as you claim. That's one reason for our Mr Buddy. The furnace might be fast enough for you, but not for us.

Catalytic Propane heaters produce radiant heat. They aren't primarily warming the air in the trailer directly. The reason you feel it works quickly is you are feeling the radiant heat on yourself. Similar to sitting around a campfire on a cool night.

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Occasionally we use the Mr Buddy to quickly warm the camper up, and a low output Martin catalytic heater instead of the furnace when we don't have enough ah's left in the battery.

Yes, we properly vent and have two CO detectors. We understand the chemistry involved.

If your really understood the chemistry of Catalytic Propane heaters you wouldn't even be mentioning CO detectors, as you'd be unconscious from oxygen depletion long before a catalytic propane heater produces any carbon monoxide.

* Why does burning propane produce so much water?

It doesn't seem possible, does it? How could one pound of propane contain more than one pound of water? Let's take a look at the chemistry.

C3H8 (propane) + 5O2 (oxygen) → 3CO2 (carbon dioxide) 4H2O (water)

For each molecule of propane burned on the left, 4 molecules of water are released on the right. The molar mass of propane is about 44 grams/mol. The molar mass of water is about 18 grams/mol. So:

44 g Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + 4*18 g Water
44 g Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + 72 g Water
1 g Propane + Oxygen → Carbon Dioxide + 1.64 g Water

So, where is all that extra weight coming from?

In fact, very little of the weight of the water produced comes from the propane itself. By weight, water is mostly oxygen, and the oxygen comes from the air. If we add the molar mass of the remaining molecules, the equation balances nicely:

44 g Propane + 5 * 32 g Oxygen → 3 * 44 g Carbon Dioxide + 4 * 18 g Water
44 g Propane + 160 g Oxygen → 132 g Carbon Dioxide + 72 g Water
204 g Reactants → 204 g Products

Using an un-vented or "vent-free" propane appliance like a catalytic heater adds 1.6 pounds of moisture into your space for every pound of propane burned. 1.6 pounds is approximately 3 cups of water.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

Every one pound green propane is converted into 3 cups of water, it's chemistry *. That is no where near the amount of water vapor released by boiling water for coffee. Not to mention when you are boiling water for coffee, you should be actively venting that moisture with the fan in your range hood.

Catalytic Propane heaters produce radiant heat. They aren't warming the air in the trailer directly. The reason you feel it works quickly is you are feeling the radiant heat on yourself. Similar to sitting around a campfire on a cool night.

If your really understood the chemistry of Catalytic Propane heaters you wouldn't even be mentioning CO detectors, as you'd be unconscious from oxygen depletion long before a catalytic propane heater produces any carbon monoxide.

So, where is all that extra weight coming from?
In fact, very little of the weight of the water produced comes from the propane itself. By weight, water is mostly oxygen, and the oxygen comes from the air. If we add the molar mass of the remaining molecules, the equation balances nicely:

First of all you failed to understand my statement that "we properly vent." You merely ass u me I'm running in a completely closed system. If you lived in Minnesota and went into the smaller/cheaper fish houses on a frozen lake you would understand, but you live in Florida.

With proper venting there is no oxygen depletion.

Proper venting also removes the H20 buildup. Again go into a fish house in Minnesota this time of year. That is the chemistry involved and have seen this physics/chemistry time and time again in our Escape as well as many fish houses. Actual practice trumps inadequate chemistry knowledge of the entire system. You're just talking about a part of that system. Because we actually own one, we see how the complete system works every time. To paraphrase, it's the entire system I'm talking about, not just a portion of that system.

A Mr Buddy is warmer in direct line from the pad, but the heat also rises and because of Mr Buddy's large output, is quicker than our furnace to warm the area behind the heater as well. I can have the Mr Buddy on the floor and if Terry is in the bed area of our 5.0, will inform me it's too hot and turn the Mr Buddy off. That bed area is not inline from the Mr Buddy.

We either have the Mr Buddy on the second step to the bed facing the dinette, or on the floor next to the stove facing the bed area. The Mr Buddy heat still rises and in the small confines of our 5.0 quickly warms the whole camper.

The Mr Buddy is too hot to use as a heater all night. We simply use it to heat the camper when arriving at night or to quickly warm the camper in the morning. It works for us. Everyone here carries different items in our campers that others don't need. TETO!

I want a CO detector to warn us if the catalytic heater starts failing and they can fail just like any other device. Because Mr Buddy can produce 9,000 btu's an hour they have a oxygen depletion sensor built in. Our Martin heater only produces 1,500 btu's an hour and we use the same venting that we use with the Mr Buddy, but the Martin can still fail so we want a second CO detector for redundancy as well as the readout that I look at every morning to see if the Martin is starting to fail and needs replacement.

Go over to the Fiberglass Forum and you'll find many there who use Mr Buddy, Wave, and Martin catalytic heaters with success. You need to look at and understand the whole picture rather than just a glimpse.

Enjoy,

Perry

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I rarely remember to shut off my propane and fridge when I'm fueling my truck... And I'm not sure I've ever pulled over before passing through a tunnel so marked, and shut off my systems. ooops.

If you tend to forget, and are worried about gasoline vapors then you could consider a diesel powered tow vehicle and mostly look to fuel at larger truck stop / RV dedicated fuel stations where the diesel pumps are dedicated and separate from the gasoline.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

First of all you failed to understand my statement that "we properly vent." If you lived in Minnesota and went into fishing houses on a frozen lake you would understand, but you live in Florida. With proper venting there is no oxygen depletion.

What leads you to believe I am a Florida native?

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Proper venting also removes the H20 buildup. Again go into a fish house in Minnesota this time of year. That is the chemistry involved and have seen this physics/chemistry time and time again in our Escape as well as many fish houses. Actual practice trumps inadequate chemistry knowledge of the entire system. You're just talking about a part of that system. Because we actually own one, we see how the complete system works every time. To paraphrase, it's the entire system I'm talking about, not just a portion of that system.

I'm pretty sure Escape trailers are more air tight than ice fishing houses.

Do you have windows open to properly vent your trailer when you use the catalytic heater in your trailer?

You realize you don't need open windows when using your trailer's furnace?

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Catalytic heaters are warmer in direct line from the pad, but the heat also rises and because of Mr Buddy's large output, is quicker than our furnace to warm the area behind the heater as well. I can have the Mr Buddy on the floor and if Terry is in the bed area of our 5.0, will inform me it's too hot and turn the Mr Buddy off. That bed area is not inline from the Mr Buddy.

We either have the Mr Buddy on the second step to the bed facing the dinette, or on the floor next to the stove facing the bed area. The Mr Buddy heat still rises and in the small confines of our 5.0 quickly warms the whole camper.

The Mr Buddy is too hot to use as a heater all night. We simply use it to heat the camper when arriving at night or to quickly warm the camper in the morning. It works for us. We all carry different items in our campers that others don't need. TETO!

You've already stated that the vast majority of the time you use the trailer furnace in conjunction with your catalytic propane heater, your anecdotal experience does not 'trump science'. <<< your oxymoron not mine

Originally Posted by Perryb67

I want a CO detector to warn us if the catalytic heater starts failing and they can fail just like any other device. Because Mr Buddy can produce 9,000 btu's an hour they have a oxygen depletion sensor built in. Our Martin heater only produces 1,500 btu's an hour and we use the same venting that we use with the Mr Buddy, but the Martin can still fail so we want a second CO detector for redundancy as well as the readout that I read every morning to see if the Martin needs replacement.

Pointing out catalytic propane heaters can fail and are capable of killing you with Carbon Monoxide doesn't sound like a selling point to me.

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Go over to the Fiberglass Forum and you'll find many there who use Mr Buddy, Wave, and Martin catalytic heaters with success. Sometimes you need to look at and understand the whole picture rather than just a glimpse.

There are more complaints of condensation and mold issues on the Fiberglass and other RV Forums than there are reports of using catalytic heaters with 'success'.

BTW, I purchased a Mr Buddy heater due to all the positive online reports in RV and vanlife forums. Like many fads extended use has shown they are less successful than the original hype indicates.

I keep the Mr Buddy heater at my house in Ohio, in case it is needed for EMERGENCY use if a Texas like event happened while I was there.

Based on my experience using it in my Sprinter van, I will no longer use it in my Sprinter which now has an Espar D2 diesel furnace or nor will it ever see the inside of my Escape trailer.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

What leads you to believe I am a Florida native?

My bad, but you do state in your info: Punta Gorda, Florida

I'm pretty sure Escape trailers are more air tight than ice fishing houses.

Do you have windows open to properly vent your trailer when you use the catalytic heater in your trailer?

You realize you don't need open windows when using your trailer's furnace

You've never been in the fish houses I've been in to see how tight they are. Most today have residential doors and windows.

I suggest you find the science of venting a catalytic or pad heater. 1/4" inlet and 1/4" exhaust. Thousands and thousands of fish house owners know this.

Yes, I know how my trailers furnace works. DUH!

You've already stated that the vast majority of the time you use the trailer furnace in conjunction with your catalytic propane heater, your anecdotal experience does not 'trump science'. <<< your oxymoron not mine

Apparently it does.

Pointing out catalytic propane heaters can fail and are capable of killing you with Carbon Monoxide doesn't sound like a selling point to me.

Not trying to sell you anything.

There are more complaints of condensation and mold issues on the Fiberglass and other RV Forums than there are reports of using catalytic heaters with 'success'.

There easily are more complaints of condensation and mold issues by those who don't understand how to mitigate those problems, but that's a separate issue. Still many on the Fiberglass Forum don't/won't understand how to successfully use a catalytic or pad heater, but hopefully they don't use one. If one chooses to understand how to use them successfully they work great.

BTW, I purchased a Mr Buddy heater due to all the positive online reports in RV and vanlife forums. Like many fads extended use has shown they are less successful than the original hype indicates.

I keep the Mr Buddy heater at my house in Ohio, in case it is needed for EMERGENCY use if a Texas like event happened while I was there.

Based on my experience using it in my Sprinter van, I will no longer use it in my Sprinter which now has an Espar D2 diesel furnace or nor will it ever see the inside of my Escape trailer.

Mr Buddy and Wave heaters are a fad? LOL.

It's easy to see why you will no longer use your Mr Buddy in your Sprinter.

Enjoy,

Perry

[TTMartin]

While I'm not sure how catalytic heaters in ice fishing houses relates to condensation issues in fiberglass trailers, since you want to go there

Originally Posted by Perryb67

I suggest you find the science of venting a catalytic or pad heater. 1/4" inlet and 1/4" exhaust.

Michigan Department of Community Health - Ice Fishing & Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

DO NOT use a portable heater inside your camper unless it is properly vented.
The manual that comes with your heater will provide instructions for venting the fumes.

From the Mr Heater Portable Buddy Radiant Heater Operating Instructions and Owner's Manual

'This heater requires a minimum vent area of 9 square inches, (example 3” x 3” opening) at the ceiling and at floor level for adequate ventilation during operation.'

That's two 3.5" round inlets, not a 1/4 inch inlet and exhaust.

After carbon monoxide killed Minnesota ice fisherman, his mother warns others

Jarad Johnson of Akeley, who was 34, died a year ago in a friend’s camper-turned-ice house on Leech Lake’s Walker Bay. The Cass County sheriff’s office reported at the time that propane heaters were not ventilated and caused CO to build up to deadly levels.

Ice fisherman dead, 3 treated for carbon monoxide on Leech Lake

One man was found dead and 3 others were treated for symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning inside a fish house on Leech Lake. According to the Cass County sheriff’s office, the 4 men were found Sunday afternoon inside a camper trailer that had been converted into an ice house.

Two of the surviving fishermen were treated on the scene and the third was taken to St. Joseph’s Hospital in Park Rapids, Minn.

The initial investigation indicates propane devices being used to heat the ice house were not ventilated and led to unsafe levels of carbon monoxide. The Ramsey County medical examiner's office will conduct an autopsy.


1 dead, 4 others injured by apparent carbon monoxide

Authorities say the group was in an ice shanty on Lake Wilmert in rural Martin County Sunday afternoon. A 21-year-old woman died at the scene about 2 p.m. A 20-year-old man was taken to St. Marys in Rochester, about two hours to the east. Three other adults were treated at local hospitals.

Winnipeg ice fishing deaths highlight importance of carbon monoxide detectors: fisherman

He says the couple who succumbed over the weekend were experienced. Fishermen nearby called emergency services after smelling propane from their tent and discovering them unresponsive.

Four Teens Killed By Carbon Monoxide In Ice-Fishing Shanty

The teens were overcome by fumes from two portable propane heaters and a propane hot plate they left running in the shanty, said Detective Leo Jadowski of the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Mr Buddy and Wave heaters are a fad? LOL.

When it comes to their use in RVs and vans, yes, very much a fad.

[UncleTim]

I see both sides of this issue. There really is no need to use a Buddy Heater in an Escape with a great heater. The heater should work fine all by itself. That is a very pragmatic approach. A good approach (IMHO).

That being said, three days ago I woke up at 5 am in Goblin Valley State Park, had some coffee at the dinette. Opened the windows (2) a little more than a crack, fired up the Buddy Flex and watched the most delightful sunrise with nicely warmed toes (no socks). The CO monitor never elevated above triple zeros (000). The trailer heater never kicked on. My wife who sleeps in much later than me likes the wafting of heat early in the morning.

It was a great morning in Utah. Did I need to do all of that? No. I could have put on socks, poured a cup of coffee and had an equally great morning. But I do like it this way. A lot! And it is quick.

Humidity in Colorado and Utah is a little different than in the eastern states. We never get enough humidity and things dry out due to low humidity most of the year.

You don't need a Buddy Heater. But I sure do like mine and use it even at home. These big vaulted ceiling can cause the floor to be colder, since heat rises. But this little local heater has worked it's way into my lifestyle. Once in a while the CO monitor will get up to 7 PPM which means I shut it off. I don't need it, but I do like it.

Anyone who takes the position that they do not lie, has my respect. I try to live by that code too! Good on ya!

BTW, heating the trailer up before we left and then turning it on when we stopped worked to keep it from getting real cold. We stopped in Glenwood Springs so I could soak in the hot springs and my wife left the heat on while we were stopped while she read her book at the dinette. Then we turned it off to travel. Travel time was 7 hours.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

While I'm not sure how catalytic heaters in ice fishing houses relates to condensation issues in fiberglass trailers, since you want to go there

Michigan Department of Community Health - Ice Fishing & Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

DO NOT use a portable heater inside your camper unless it is properly vented.
The manual that comes with your heater will provide instructions for venting the fumes.

From the Mr Heater Portable Buddy Radiant Heater Operating Instructions and Owner's Manual

'This heater requires a minimum vent area of 9 square inches, (example 3” x 3” opening) at the ceiling and at floor level for adequate ventilation during operation.'

That's two 3.5" round inlets, not a 1/4 inch inlet and exhaust.

After carbon monoxide killed Minnesota ice fisherman, his mother warns others

Jarad Johnson of Akeley, who was 34, died a year ago in a friend’s camper-turned-ice house on Leech Lake’s Walker Bay. The Cass County sheriff’s office reported at the time that propane heaters were not ventilated and caused CO to build up to deadly levels.

Ice fisherman dead, 3 treated for carbon monoxide on Leech Lake

One man was found dead and 3 others were treated for symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning inside a fish house on Leech Lake. According to the Cass County sheriff’s office, the 4 men were found Sunday afternoon inside a camper trailer that had been converted into an ice house.

Two of the surviving fishermen were treated on the scene and the third was taken to St. Joseph’s Hospital in Park Rapids, Minn.

The initial investigation indicates propane devices being used to heat the ice house were not ventilated and led to unsafe levels of carbon monoxide. The Ramsey County medical examiner's office will conduct an autopsy.


1 dead, 4 others injured by apparent carbon monoxide

Authorities say the group was in an ice shanty on Lake Wilmert in rural Martin County Sunday afternoon. A 21-year-old woman died at the scene about 2 p.m. A 20-year-old man was taken to St. Marys in Rochester, about two hours to the east. Three other adults were treated at local hospitals.

Winnipeg ice fishing deaths highlight importance of carbon monoxide detectors: fisherman

He says the couple who succumbed over the weekend were experienced. Fishermen nearby called emergency services after smelling propane from their tent and discovering them unresponsive.

Four Teens Killed By Carbon Monoxide In Ice-Fishing Shanty

The teens were overcome by fumes from two portable propane heaters and a propane hot plate they left running in the shanty, said Detective Leo Jadowski of the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department.

Edit:


When it comes to their use in RVs and vans, yes, very much a fad.

My math says a quarter inch with the open length of 36" equals 9 square inches, not 1/4", the same 9 square inch requirement that you quoted from Mr Heater. I didn't drill a 1/4" hole in the side and ceiling of the camper, instead I crack a window and the ceiling vent. Huge difference!

I never said we use Mr Buddy to heat the camper all night. It's too hot! We use it to quickly warm up the camper. On occasion we use the Martin heater that uses 1/6th the fuel and puts out 1/6th the exhaust. Yet we use the same exhaust method you quoted from Mr Heater.

I understand the science of venting, something that the fish house owners that died didn't understand. Your quotes included:

"DO NOT use a portable heater inside your camper unless it is properly vented."

"at the time that propane heaters were not ventilated and caused CO to build up to deadly levels"

"The initial investigation indicates propane devices being used to heat the ice house were not ventilated and led to unsafe levels of carbon monoxide"

Tiger Woods just crashed his car because of improper driving.
Am I going to stop driving?

The simple science involved in proper venting is why Terry and I are alive and those fishermen are dead.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by UncleTim

I see both sides of this issue. There really is no need to use a Buddy Heater in an Escape with a great heater. The heater should work fine all by itself. That is a very pragmatic approach. A good approach (IMHO).

That being said, three days ago I woke up at 5 am in Goblin Valley State Park, had some coffee at the dinette. Opened the windows (2) a little more than a crack, fired up the Buddy Flex and watched the most delightful sunrise with nicely warmed toes (no socks). The CO monitor never elevated above triple zeros (000). The trailer heater never kicked on. My wife who sleeps in much later than me likes the wafting of heat early in the morning.

It was a great morning in Utah. Did I need to do all of that? No. I could have put on socks, poured a cup of coffee and had an equally great morning. But I do like it this way. A lot! And it is quick.

Humidity in Colorado and Utah is a little different than in the eastern states. We never get enough humidity and things dry out due to low humidity most of the year.

You don't need a Buddy Heater. But I sure do like mine and use it even at home. These big vaulted ceiling can cause the floor to be colder, since heat rises. But this little local heater has worked it's way into my lifestyle. Once in a while the CO monitor will get up to 7 PPM which means I shut it off. I don't need it, but I do like it.

Anyone who takes the position that they do not lie, has my respect. I try to live by that code too! Good on ya!

BTW, heating the trailer up before we left and then turning it on when we stopped worked to keep it from getting real cold. We stopped in Glenwood Springs so I could soak in the hot springs and my wife left the heat on while we were stopped while she read her book at the dinette. Then we turned it off to travel. Travel time was 7 hours.

Finally, someone who understands.

Enjoy,

Perry

[h2owmn]

Re 500 ml bottles, frozen. In the hot summer I rotate 3 32 oz frozen (water) gatorade bottles freezer to refrigerator for travel days. I don't worry as long as I don't have uncooked meat in there, but the temp stays pretty cold. (no propane running while on the road)

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by h2owmn

Re 500 ml bottles, frozen. In the hot summer I rotate 3 32 oz frozen (water) gatorade bottles freezer to refrigerator for travel days. I don't worry as long as I don't have uncooked meat in there, but the temp stays pretty cold. (no propane running while on the road)

When we attend the rally in Osoyoos in the past, I turn the refer on a day before departure using 120v. When hooking up it is switched to propane where it remains for the rest of the trip out and return. While at Nk-Mip we will switch to electric. Have not had any issues and still have plenty of propane left.

[Effie]

Keep in mind that Escape is using the same 12,000 BTU furnace in the 17, the 5.0, and everything in between. So while the one in my 19 can keep up most of the time (and I hate being cold), it could be a different story in the 5.0.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Effie

Keep in mind that Escape is using the same 12,000 BTU furnace in the 17, the 5.0, and everything in between. So while the one in my 19 can keep up most of the time (and I hate being cold), it could be a different story in the 5.0.

Not to contradict you, but there is a similar amount of cubic feet in the 5.0TA as in the 19. The 5.0 TA is a little over 21 feet long, but the front 7-1/2 feet is a sleeping loft that is less than half the vertical feet from floor to ceiling as the 19 is, although the ceiling is higher in the middle of the 5.0TA than the 19, and it is wider than the 19. However, the bottom line is the 12,000 BTU furnace heats the 5.0TA just fine. For that matter, a 1,000 watt electric ceramic heater will keep my 5.0TA the low 70s° F when outside temperatures hover around freezing.

[Effie]

Interesting, I always felt that the 5.0 is larger, guess I was wrong.

[UncleTim]

Originally Posted by Effie

Interesting, I always felt that the 5.0 is larger, guess I was wrong.

Love this.