Speaking of leaks

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by WillyB

Justifying $40,000 for a single outer fiberglass shell vs $20,000 for stick built makes for a difficult calculation.

Maybe paying someone a whopping $1,000 a year to prevent leaks for a whopping “20 YEARS” is a better investment in the long run?

I love the whole idea of the small, rounded fiberglass Escape concept but paying an EXTRA $20,000 for an outer fiberglass shell is a bit extreme give that refrigerators, heaters, air conditioners, ovens/stoves, awnings, storage tanks, propane tanks, solar options, battery options, power tongues, etc are essentially the same across the entire industry.

For $60,000 (only an extra $20K for an Oliver) you can buy a unit with a fiberglass interior AND exterior shell that will not rot at all if you get a leak in the roof or window or interior high humidity AND you get a significantly better frame AND it won’t rust AND they hold their value AND they have the exclusivity factor to show off. It’s only an extra 20 Grand.

Sorry for the rant but I keep finding it harder and harder to understand the $20,000 Members Buy In Fee for the single outer fiberglass shell cool factor.

Maybe someone from Escape needs to convince me?

Take a look at the resale value of an Escape vs your average stick build and come back to the discussion.

There's valid reasons why stick builds drop drastically in value over five years. An Escape holds it's value for more years than I have data for. The difference is how long each trailer is expected to last. Stick build - not long at all.

[HABBERDABBER]

Coffins don't have pockets, they say.
If it's up front money you can't bear to part with, get your sticky. If it's value and resale and durability, get something else.
Get underneath a sticky and observe materials and construction. Usually, they're a joke. One I saw had plastic film covering the plywood underfloor. How long will that last? Film like you'd cover a window with. 1st rock nick and you have issues. Another had the flimsy corrugated plastic sheet (like cardboard, but plastic) protecting the ply floor.



You'll get your $20K back at resale. I sold a 1996 16' Casita last year for more than it likely originally cost. I had a 20 year old fiberglass sailboat that looked new. I maintained it well, but fiberglass doesn't degrade, maybe only fade with UV exposure.


It's true....you often get what you pay for.

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by WillyB

Maybe someone from Escape needs to convince me?

Bill, it sounds like you are at that quandary. You have a want, but you are not able to justify . You gave up a lot to acquire the finances and now how do you justify it.

When my kids were young I often said "you can have anything you want (in life), but not everything". The supposed lesson was that there is a trade off, for everything you want in life there is something(s) you will not be able to have.

[padlin]

After having to lift the shell off my 7 yo Starcraft to replace the floor I learned my lesson and went to FG. The amount of repairs on the Starcraft doesn't get close to comparing to repairs I made in the Escape in the same time frame. It cost me pretty much the same amount to own the $14k Starcraft as the Escape, had each for 7 years but spent many many more nights and miles enjoying the Escape, and much less time repairing.

[Ian and Sue]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Take a look at the resale value of an Escape vs your average stick build and come back to the discussion.

There's valid reasons why stick builds drop drastically in value over five years. An Escape holds it's value for more years than I have data for. The difference is how long each trailer is expected to last. Stick build - not long at all.

Along with a resale value almost equal to new value, look at how long they last on the market....most FG campers sell in days or weeks for close to or at the asking price. We bought ours used a couple of years old at about the base price and got a bunch of options for free. If and when I am ready to sell it will go quick and my original outlay of money will probably be refunded!

[oldwave]

In 2017, my 21 with air, solar, and extra insulation was 27,000 with a favorable exchange rate. I expect I could get over 30 for it now given there is a two year wait for a new one. Also the base price is 30,000 for a new 21, so adding those options don’t add up to 40,000. A 4 year old stick built would have only 1/2 its value. Owners don’t have to convince anyone, the numbers speak for themselves. By the way, how much is a new 21 foot airstream, about 80,000 I expect? Looking forward to seeing the new 23 and it’s design improvements. I would like a Bigfoot 25rbq`, but I don’t have 60,000 plus. The value is still in the Escapes. Perfect ? no. But most cost effective for the quality.

[bborzell]

We bought a lightly used Class C MH with a cabover window. We had done a pressure test prior to purchase that turned out to give a false assurance of the integrity of the front window seal. After the first trip into a steady rainy headwind, the cabover took on water.

The slightly good news is that the frame of the MH was aluminum. The bad news was that the labor/materials to strip out and replace the swelled luan/insulation lamination was pretty substantial. I spent two months doing the work myself.

The internal pressure test had masked the problem with the front window seal as it pushed the glass forward and sealed it against the inner face of the seal. The result was that the testing water spray from the front was not enough to overcome the positive pressure from within the coach; hence it passed the leak test.

Unfortunately, the real world rain test didn’t have to work hard to overcome the relatively neutral coach pressure while on the road and the slight gap between the outer edge of the glass and the inner edge of the gasket allowed significant water infiltration.

After repairing (including replacing the entire window structure) and ultimately selling the MH, we recently had another leak event. After three years, we experienced a slight leak in our Airstream Basecamp which was easily traced to a failed bathroom vent seal. The primary perimeter roof seal is and has always been solid. In one way, it is nice to rely on the notion that the most likely way to have a roof leak is through failed seals on air conditioners and vents which applies to the vast majority of trailers of any construction.

It is refreshing to anticipate embarking upon a new trailer ownership with what appears to be the best fighting chance to avoid both water intrusion and the seriously deflating sense that comes with water damage in a trailer.

[Bea]

Originally Posted by WillyB

...For $60,000 (only an extra $20K for an Oliver) you can buy a unit with a fiberglass interior AND exterior shell that will not rot at all if you get a leak in the roof or window or interior high humidity AND you get a significantly better frame AND it won’t rust AND they hold their value AND they have the exclusivity factor to show off. It’s only an extra 20 Grand.
Maybe someone from Escape needs to convince me?

Here's one perspective for you. If you look at the Olivers (which are beautiful trailers, indeed) for ONLY 20 grand less, you can get an Escape trailer that:

a) does not 'rot at all if you get a leak in the roof or window'
b) easily manageable interior humidity (at least for us in CA)
c) a solid frame (our previous stick trailer frames, slowly bent over the years)
d) as a fiberglass trailer, definitely holds their $ value over the years
e) exclusivity factor?? IMHO, Escape has the upper hand in that department. For instance:

Size. Oliver only has 2 sizes (neither works for us, one is too small, the other too big) and they are much heavier trailers which translates into a need for a bigger/stronger tow vehicle. On the other hand, Escape has 4 different lightweight sizes, with a 5th one (23ft) coming out soon. Much better choices in layouts and sizes.

Options. In an Oliver, there is no option for a propane oven and the refrigerator size is shockingly small (for $60K) and no option for a front window (all deal killers for us). Escape has a nice selection of quality options, making it easy/fun to personalize.

For us, the price of our Escape was fully justified knowing we were getting a quality built fiberglass trailer, that will hold it's value over time in a layout and design that works well for us for the camping we like to do. Not perfect, but far superior to the stick builds we've owned. -Bea

[Centex]

Originally Posted by WillyB

Justifying $40,000 for a single outer fiberglass shell vs $20,000 for stick built makes for a difficult calculation.
.....
Maybe someone from Escape needs to convince me?

IMO there's no need for anyone to convince you of anything ....

Don't rely on other folks' opinions or biased manufacturer marketing pitches - take the time to make your own thorough eyes-on-in-person look at some 10-15-20 year old trailers, both FG and 'sticky', where the original purchase price was double for the FG per your scenario.

If you find that with a true comparable comparison of size, features, and 2x original price-split of the sort you've established you like what you see in those well-aged sticky's ..... then yep, that's probably the route for you, no worries and congratulations for coming to your own well-informed (or at least better-informed) conclusion.

I'm serious, not being 'flip' or facetious in any respect, and I'm not pretending to predict what your conclusion might be - different folks have different expectations and measures of 'value'; that's why there's a place in the market for the variety of RVs offered, both price and construction.

Sincerely wishing you Happy Comparing, Happy Shopping, and Happy Trailering based on being a self-informed consumer

[Greg A]

We went to the dark side once for 2 years cause kids got older and needed a Bunk House model. First thing I did was get two 50' rolls of eternabond tape and went up on the roof and sealed every roof seam with the eternabond. Never had any leaks with it.
However, the maintenance on the trailer as a whole started wearing me out and I just couldn't keep it looking very good.
Gave up and came back after the experience to molded glass. Much happier.

[steve dunham]

No trailer is leak free , defect free , maintenance free or problem free
I fully understand and appreciate Willy B’s post
It is difficult to justify the upfront cost of a single wall FG trailer
Between depreciation , inflation and maintenance costs no trailer is a long term investment

[bborzell]

We looked at an Oliver (actually both sizes) and came away with the sense that a double hulled FG trailer sounded better than it felt.

Despite being 2+ feet longer than an Escape 21C, the Oliver interior reminded me of the weekend we spent in our 22 foot fixed keel sailboat during a constant rain storm. Granted, the Oliver offered more room than a hull that utilizes 1/2 its length for a cockpit, but there were enough similarities such as a very narrow pathway down the center of the living space and fiberglass everywhere. After 30 minutes inside with my wife, we both felt that the interior design was too restrictive and very much appliance white.

I don’t know how much interior space is lost with the mating of the interior hull to the exterior hull, but it seemed to us that the combination of molded interior fixtures and airspace between the hulls made for much more constriction than we would be willing to tolerate during forced inside stays. This effect was in stark contrast to the open feeling we experienced while sitting in an Escape 21C.

If interior “feel” wasn’t enough to seriously question the suitability of the Oliver for our needs, the fact that our preferred TV would barely qualify to pull it around the country sealed the deal.

Given the scope of currently available lighter weight trailer models, I see significant value in the Escape line.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by WillyB

Justifying $40,000 for a single outer fiberglass shell vs $20,000 for stick built makes for a difficult calculation.

If you can find an older Escape used for a fair price you could get the benefits of the molded fiberglass trailer for the cost of the new stick built. A lot of the older trailers weren’t loaded with all the options you see today but are solid. If you enjoy working on the trailer then modifications add value and enjoyment and in most cases you would outpace the small depreciation due to further aging. That seems like the best deal to me.

[lorrie]

Originally Posted by WillyB

Justifying $40,000 for a single outer fiberglass shell vs $20,000 for stick built makes for a difficult calculation.

Maybe paying someone a whopping $1,000 a year to prevent leaks for a whopping “20 YEARS” is a better investment in the long run?

I love the whole idea of the small, rounded fiberglass Escape concept but paying an EXTRA $20,000 for an outer fiberglass shell is a bit extreme give that refrigerators, heaters, air conditioners, ovens/stoves, awnings, storage tanks, propane tanks, solar options, battery options, power tongues, etc are essentially the same across the entire industry.

For $60,000 (only an extra $20K for an Oliver) you can buy a unit with a fiberglass interior AND exterior shell that will not rot at all if you get a leak in the roof or window or interior high humidity AND you get a significantly better frame AND it won’t rust AND they hold their value AND they have the exclusivity factor to show off. It’s only an extra 20 Grand.

Sorry for the rant but I keep finding it harder and harder to understand the $20,000 Members Buy In Fee for the single outer fiberglass shell cool factor.

Maybe someone from Escape needs to convince me?

Nope, won't try and convince you. The wait list is already too long. One less person in the que.

[Rossue]

A friend drove up last December from Reno and met with Karl. He liked our 21 and was ready to buy a 21 NE. Was going to approach $40K. Got home and nearby neighbor had a 1-year old Keystone 23' for sale and he bought it for $13k.

[Doug2000]

It’s been a while since I looked at Oliver. I remember thinking wow that’s really expensive. Keep in mind, I’m in Canada. If I buy an Oliver, a $50k US price tag is $65k Canadian. If you buy an Escape, a $35k trailer is $28k. The difference for an American, buy a Oliver at $50k to $60k or an Escape at $25k to $30k. Currency exchange is an important consideration.

As far as quality, I couldn’t consider taking an Oliver where I go, there way to nice and that Fibreglass interior would likely get wrecked by my kids.

If you want to save some money? Buy a stick built. I had a Forest River Wildwood, I lost my shirt on it, the thing never stopped leaking, tubes of sealant and extra flashing, good bye.

Next we had a 1977 Trillium, I made $350 after 5 years, next our 2007 Escape 17B, bought for $15k, 5 years later, sold for $16k.

When it came time to upgrade, we looked around again, my wife says, just order a new Escape or you won’t be happy, women are always right. Your choice, Fibreglass has treated me well.

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by WillyB

Justifying $40,000 for a single outer fiberglass shell vs $20,000 for stick built makes for a difficult calculation.

Maybe paying someone a whopping $1,000 a year to prevent leaks for a whopping “20 YEARS” is a better investment in the long run?

I love the whole idea of the small, rounded fiberglass Escape concept but paying an EXTRA $20,000 for an outer fiberglass shell is a bit extreme give that refrigerators, heaters, air conditioners, ovens/stoves, awnings, storage tanks, propane tanks, solar options, battery options, power tongues, etc are essentially the same across the entire industry.

For $60,000 (only an extra $20K for an Oliver) you can buy a unit with a fiberglass interior AND exterior shell that will not rot at all if you get a leak in the roof or window or interior high humidity AND you get a significantly better frame AND it won’t rust AND they hold their value AND they have the exclusivity factor to show off. It’s only an extra 20 Grand.


Sorry for the rant but I keep finding it harder and harder to understand the $20,000 Members Buy In Fee for the single outer fiberglass shell cool factor.

Maybe someone from Escape needs to convince me?

If you can’t figure this out, perhaps an Escape is not for you. The people who buy and enjoy one or more Escapes think their expenditure is prudent and it’s not anyone’s job to sell you on the beauty, practicality, durability, and satisfaction of ownership. If you feel the stick built trailers or another brand of fiberglass are superior to an Escape, get your money out and get one. Money talks Bull....walks.
Iowa Dave

[rjbny]

Originally Posted by WillyB

Justifying $40,000 for a single outer fiberglass shell vs $20,000 for stick built makes for a difficult calculation.

The calculation for our 2017 Escape 19' at ~$28,000 USD wasn't so difficult. We didn't want the hassle/work of trying to keep another stick-built from rotting away and also worrying that every mile we traveled was going to accelerate the process. The financial question was actually pretty easy after watching how quickly preowned Escapes were selling and the prices owners were getting.

We've camped for four seasons and our Escape still looks almost new. Last summer we had a woman come running out of a gas station out in the Midwest to ask about it. She thought it was brand new and could hardly believe it when I told her it was in its' fourth season.

We had a depreciation number in mind when we originally made our calculation. I wonder how that would look in today's market if we sold it. But, we have no intention of selling it - we like it too much!

Bottom line though is each person needs to figure out what works best for them and what value they place on the features offered by the different manufacturers - e.g. if you need a big living room or have a large family that wants to be inside a lot, then an Escape isn't going to have the same value as other options.

[MyronL]

Then, of course, is the times your sticky spends idle because they can't get replacement parts for the broke slide-out parts that got stuck in the half-closed position. Or your dealer repair shop is booked solid and says come back in 6 weeks, but really doesn't want to know you.

[oldwave]

I am sure there are some well made more conventional trailers out there. Some have aluminum frames and fiber glass panels as well as one piece roofs. This evening my partner and I sat down and went through you tube videos of other trailers including Oliver, Airstream, Bigfoot and some other newer high tech offerings that are coming on the market. We came to the conclusion that the premium priced offerings from Oliver and Airstream weren’t really that much better for the extra 30,000 dollars over our 21. We liked the Oliver’s construction philosophy but didn’t like the layout. My personal favorite was the Bigfoot RQB 25 . I’d like just a bit more room and a walk around bed. However these seem to be in the 65000 area. Ouch. I am hoping for a significant improvement in design for the upcoming 23 as they have to opportunity to address some of the shortcomings of the current line up. I would hope for better wiring, plumbing improvements and service panels to reach the aforementioned like Oliver does. The aluminum frame composite design with the steel axel mounts is quite impressive and I hope the crew has studied some of the best practices of the competition. A mid 40, 000 trailer might still be 20,000 cheaper than the competition. However I hope the extra money buys an increase in design and construction quality, especially in the underlying utilities. If these things come to pass we will seriously consider selling the 21 and ponying up the extra money for a bit more room, if the design improvements aren’t there we will keep what we have. I’m disappointed that casita and scamp has decided to keep doing what they always have and seem not to be bringing out anything new, they are missing an opportunity I suspect.