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Old 07-07-2015, 08:59 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
It's easy to exceed limits, but in forum discussions we've run the numbers for a few members' rigs and it can be done. GVWR seems to be the most problematic limit, even with the larger conventional trailers.


It's usually not a problem for trucks, but it is hard to find for many vehicles. On the other hand, I've never seen GCWR on a placard... probably because it isn't a legally enforced limit so there's federal requirement to put in on the placard. Both GAWR and the GVWR will be on the placard.



That seems unlikely to me. "Dry" means without fluids, after all.
For some manufacturers, dry can also mean not including options. Not sure how escape defines dry weight.
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:06 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
people end up believing they can tow
their 19ft, 4000lb trailer with a Mini Cooper
but only if you visit can-am first!
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:16 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by dbailey View Post
but only if you visit can-am first!
An doncha know they tow like that all the time in Europe! It's the stopping that becomes a problem...
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:43 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Thank you for posting your actual pin weight . I had a feeling that the dry pin weight of 600 lbs posted by Escape would be a little low . Our friends new 34ft "LIGHTWEIGHT " fifth wheel trailer has a pin weight approaching 30% and he is over the GVWR for his 3/4 ton diesel truck
I admire this forum for its rational and logical discussion of tow vehicles . Many times on other forums logic never enters the picture and people end up believing they can tow
their 19ft, 4000lb trailer with a Mini Cooper
These do very a good deal, here's the 3 entries for 5.0TA's from the table Jon V keeps on the subject.
axle pin total
3329 728 4057
3840 520 4360
3490 610 4100
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:48 AM   #65
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Those numbers do not appear to be correct. A proportionally heavier trailer, such as example 2 should and would have a heavier pin weight than trailer #1 which would appear to be a stock unit close to the 3100# weight with options as unit #3 appears to be, a stock unit with options.
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:08 AM   #66
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If you still have your Sherline and If the 21 is the same as the 5.0TA, fill both the waste tanks (in front of the axles) and check your tongue weight. Empty them and fill the rear fresh tank and weight the tongue again. Might explain the big difference seen. Be interesting info anyway.
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:11 AM   #67
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Mine was 3800# axle and 500# tongue on Montana scale on way home from Osoyoos with 1/2 fresh tank and empty grey/black but packed for 2 weeks clothing and food.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:47 PM   #68
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Thanks for the real world pin and axle weights. Can a pin weight percentage be too low? If I did my math right, that last listing is only 11% pin weight. (500/(3800+500))

Is under 15% even safe?

FYI - according to ETI, one could expect up to a 900 lb pin weight on a fully loaded 5.0 TA.
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:50 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by kvermeulen View Post
For some manufacturers, dry can also mean not including options.
"Dry" means without fluids. Most manufacturers (of any vehicle, whether a motor vehicle or a trailer) list the weight without options, which might best be described as "base". Of course they also weigh it dry. If the spec says "dry", it means dry... and it's probably also without options.
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:59 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by yogiyoda View Post
Is under 15% even safe?
Yes.

Traditionally, for North American trailers the "rule of thumb" was 10% for conventional trailers with a weight-carrying hitch, 15% for conventional trailers with a weight-distributing hitch, and something higher (25%) for a fifth-wheel trailer. None of these numbers have any basis in the facts of a specific trailer, they're just sort of typical. In Europe, tongue weight is typically much lower.

The recommended numbers in forum discussions seem to keep getting higher. I'm waiting for the day someone declares that any less than 50% of the weight on the tongue is unsafe

Fifth-wheel trailers have higher hitch weight because they can, not because they need it.
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:57 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by padlin View Post
axle pin total
3329 728 4057
3840 520 4360
3490 610 4100
My guesses:
  • the first one is Bob's, with all that waste water and propane and no fresh water
  • the last one has fresh water instead of waste water, and bikes hung on the bumper but no propane (same total weight as the first one, just differently distributed)
  • the middle one has full fresh water tank, big dual batteries under the dinette, a bike on the back, and a cast-iron cookware collection in back

The point, as Bob explained, is that loading matters. If your truck is close to the GVWR or GAWR-rear with the trailer, you need to be particularly careful about loading. A Colorado/Canyon might be close to its limits, but a Silverado/Sierra 1500, a Ram 1500, or a Ford F-10 might be, too, depending on configuration and cargo.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:23 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
"Dry" means without fluids. Most manufacturers (of any vehicle, whether a motor vehicle or a trailer) list the weight without options, which might best be described as "base". Of course they also weigh it dry. If the spec says "dry", it means dry... and it's probably also without options.
That was my understanding of dry weight too. Usually, most motor vehicles list "curb weight" though which includes all fluids even a full tank of gas.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:33 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Yes.

Traditionally, for North American trailers the "rule of thumb" was 10% for conventional trailers with a weight-carrying hitch, 15% for conventional trailers with a weight-distributing hitch, and something higher (25%) for a fifth-wheel trailer. None of these numbers have any basis in the facts of a specific trailer, they're just sort of typical. In Europe, tongue weight is typically much lower.

The recommended numbers in forum discussions seem to keep getting higher. I'm waiting for the day someone declares that any less than 50% of the weight on the tongue is unsafe

Fifth-wheel trailers have higher hitch weight because they can, not because they need it.
I believe the argument for not having tongue and pin weight too low has to do with trailer sway, tracking and issues with truck handling.

"If you don't have enough weight on the trailer tongue, less than 10 percent of the total loaded trailer weight, the trailer can end up swaying from side to side, making it difficult to control."

Tongue Weight and Its Role in Safe Trailering and Towing | GMC

"If the trailer is being towed nose up, the hitch weight will be too low and can lead to ride problems with the truck, bad trailer sway, and tracking problems with the trailer."

https://www.etrailer.com/question-44961.html

I've commonly heard 10% for traditional trailers, but I don't know what the value is for fifth wheels.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:46 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
My guesses:
The point, as Bob explained, is that loading matters. If your truck is close to the GVWR or GAWR-rear with the trailer, you need to be particularly careful about loading. A Colorado/Canyon might be close to its limits, but a Silverado/Sierra 1500, a Ram 1500, or a Ford F-10 might be, too, depending on configuration and cargo.
Yes, the Ram 1500 Ecodiesel will usually do worse than the GMC Canyon depending on the configuration. It can tow more, but doesn't have much payload capacity, which is the limiting factor here.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:51 AM   #75
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That is why they are called "1/2" ton trucks, they can only carry 1,000 lbs safely.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:13 AM   #76
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One of the issues with the modern 1/2 ton trucks is that they are not built like trucks of years past . Most modern 1/2 ton trucks are used as commuter vehicles or so called " Grocery Getters" and in many cases never tow anything behind the truck or carry much of anything in the box . Years ago trucks were bare bones work vehicles ,now they have all the features of a luxury car. My Ram truck rides better than my wife's passenger car but the ride comes at the expense of payload capacity. I am not sure if they built an old fashioned work truck in this day and age if the trucks would sell well to the general public . In the attempt to raise the MPG of trucks ,the truck manufacturers keep trying to reduce weight , sometimes at the expense of what makes a truck a truck . IMHO . Years ago we would throw 3000 lbs of rock in the back of a 1/2 ton truck and not worry about it.
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Old 07-08-2015, 11:33 AM   #77
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I am not sure if they built an old fashioned work truck in this day and age if the trucks would sell well to the general public .
They do sort of make them - the base trim of any truck line - and no, they don't sell. Even companies buying work trucks choose a higher equipment level for either worker comfort or resale value.
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Old 07-08-2015, 11:35 AM   #78
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That was my understanding of dry weight too. Usually, most motor vehicles list "curb weight" though which includes all fluids even a full tank of gas.
Yes, good point - the common practice in motor vehicles for fluids is quite different from that for travel trailers. The reason is that the motor vehicle needs those fluids to operate, while the trailer is still a usable trailer with empty tanks - some people even make a point of having the water and waste tanks empty whenever they hit the road. I should have only said that motor vehicles are listed by base weight, rather than fully equipped; trailers are usually listed dry (and with base equipment) while motor vehicles are "wet".

The term "curb" refers to the vehicle being parked at the curb, ready to drive - so including fluids. Currently in the UK this is usually given as "MRO" which means Mass in Running Order... the same thing (and similar terms are used in Europe in various languages).

Either approach - filled or dry - works, as long as the conditions are stated. It makes sense for trailers specifications to be given dry and with only base equipment; the tank sizes should also be listed, as well as available options. In an ideal world, options would be listed with their weights, so the buyer can determine what their chosen trailer would weigh.
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Old 07-08-2015, 11:39 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by yogiyoda View Post
I believe the argument for not having tongue and pin weight too low has to do with trailer sway, tracking and issues with truck handling.
...
I've commonly heard 10% for traditional trailers, but I don't know what the value is for fifth wheels.
Yes, that's the reason... and neither the style of the coupling (conventional ball-and-socket or fifth-wheel pin-and-plate) nor the height (bumper height or up in the box) changes that. If anything, having the hitch at or ahead of the tug's rear axle makes the tug better able to control the trailer and helps stability, so there's less need for forward weight distribution (so less hitch weight).
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Old 07-08-2015, 12:24 PM   #80
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Yes, that's the reason... and neither the style of the coupling (conventional ball-and-socket or fifth-wheel pin-and-plate) nor the height (bumper height or up in the box) changes that. If anything, having the hitch at or ahead of the tug's rear axle makes the tug better able to control the trailer and helps stability, so there's less need for forward weight distribution (so less hitch weight).
What you say makes some sense, but do you have any resources to back that up?

I did a quick Google search and didn't find anything. I did find this thread on conventional fifth wheels. A few posters comment on how going much lower than 20% pin weight is not good. Complaints are of worsened handling and the risk of "porpoising" and that things can "get scary".

Is loading back of 5th Wheel a good way to minimize pin weight? - Page 2 - iRV2 Forums

I understand that 5.0 TA is lighter but the tow vehicles used tend to be lighter too. The difference between trailer and vehicle weights might not be as extreme but you would think the same general principles would apply even if the results aren't as extreme.
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