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06-14-2017, 10:15 PM
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#1
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Trailer: 19' - Picking up November 29, 2017
Posts: 71
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Two 6 volts and inverter drain with various items
I'm working on my build sheet and I'm wondering if anyone has input regarding the kind of drain I can expect with two fully charged 6 volts when using the inverter/transfer switch for items like a toaster, hair dryer, microwave, etc. For example, what would happen if I let the micro run for approx 10 minutes at 1000 watts. It seems as if you're getting the inverter, you may as well go all the way and power all your 120 outlets with the transfer switch option also - right?
Thanks,
Dan S
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06-15-2017, 12:43 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Rosa County, Florida
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21 Tow: 2024 Toyota Tundra
Posts: 3,097
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I have the inverter, the 6V batteries, and the transfer switch. If I run my small microwave (700W cooking power) for eight minutes it draws my batteries down by about ten percent of their capacity. I don't use the other 120V outlets for very much, but that's just me. Others certainly do.
__________________
Mike Lewis
She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie-- propane
Photos and travelogues here: mikelewisimages.com
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06-15-2017, 01:16 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Redwood City, California
Trailer: 2017 Escape 19
Posts: 286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S
I'm working on my build sheet and I'm wondering if anyone has input regarding the kind of drain I can expect with two fully charged 6 volts when using the inverter/transfer switch for items like a toaster, hair dryer, microwave, etc. For example, what would happen if I let the micro run for approx 10 minutes at 1000 watts. It seems as if you're getting the inverter, you may as well go all the way and power all your 120 outlets with the transfer switch option also - right?
Thanks,
Dan S
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For your example, you can actually do the math yourself. You have watts times minutes, to be converted to amp-hours at 12V
1000W * 0.17hrs = 170Wh.
170Wh / 12V = 14Ah. So, it'll eat 14Ah of your battery capacity.
Now, that's a bit of a simplification. I'm not sure whether your microwave is rated by power output or power consumption: although a 1000W hair dryer uses very close to 1000W, a 1000W microwave might draw closer to 1500W from "the wall", so bump that up to 21Ah if the 1000W rating is power output. Your inverter's not 100% efficient, so maybe 23Ah. You'll also have quite a bit of "Peukert effect" loss in this case, because lead-acid batteries aren't very efficient at high output. So, probably anywhere from 18-50Ah with all of that, out of your 225Ah total (and ~120Ah real, if you're trying to stay above/near 50% charge to extend the battery life)
You can look up the power draw on the toaster and hair dryer as well. Since they're mostly just simple resistive heaters, the power output and draw are essentially the same. Typically those are both 700-1600W, so in the same general ballpark as the microwave.
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06-15-2017, 01:26 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Rosa County, Florida
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21 Tow: 2024 Toyota Tundra
Posts: 3,097
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I just looked at the label on my microwave-- it says 1050W, so I presume that's how much it draws. FYI.
__________________
Mike Lewis
She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie-- propane
Photos and travelogues here: mikelewisimages.com
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06-15-2017, 02:26 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southwick, Massachusetts
Trailer: None, sold my 2014 5.0TA
Posts: 7,124
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I figure 15A for 10 minutes on the MW
8A for 7 minutes with a 750w (medium setting on ours) hair drier
Our toaster is 700w, so about 1A per minute of run time (never timed it).
I think the inverter ETI uses is 85% efficient, so you'd have to add a bit for that.
Keep in mind the MW in the trailer is pretty low power, takes a good deal longer to cook then the big one at home. Takes almost twice as long to heat up a cup of water.
__________________
Happy Motoring
Bob
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06-15-2017, 07:29 AM
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#6
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Trailer: 19' - Picking up November 29, 2017
Posts: 71
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What I'm hearing from everyone is that the inverter and transfer switch may not be worth the $950 CAN cost at all. Using that much battery is not worth a cup of coffee or styled hair. I guess it should be considered an emergency back up? What do you all use it for if you're not interested in sucking your batteries down that quickly for microwave, etc use? Thanks
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06-15-2017, 07:43 AM
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#7
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Trailer: 19' - Picking up November 29, 2017
Posts: 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
For your example, you can actually do the math yourself. You have watts times minutes, to be converted to amp-hours at 12V
1000W * 0.17hrs = 170Wh.
170Wh / 12V = 14Ah. So, it'll eat 14Ah of your battery capacity.
Now, that's a bit of a simplification. I'm not sure whether your microwave is rated by power output or power consumption: although a 1000W hair dryer uses very close to 1000W, a 1000W microwave might draw closer to 1500W from "the wall", so bump that up to 21Ah if the 1000W rating is power output. Your inverter's not 100% efficient, so maybe 23Ah. You'll also have quite a bit of "Peukert effect" loss in this case, because lead-acid batteries aren't very efficient at high output. So, probably anywhere from 18-50Ah with all of that, out of your 225Ah total (and ~120Ah real, if you're trying to stay above/near 50% charge to extend the battery life)
You can look up the power draw on the toaster and hair dryer as well. Since they're mostly just simple resistive heaters, the power output and draw are essentially the same. Typically those are both 700-1600W, so in the same general ballpark as the microwave.
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Are you saying worst case, that you might eat up to about 50% of two fully charged 6 volts or 120Ah? I'll be getting portable solar so I guess that would offset the loss on a continual basis at least during the day assuming it's deployed. Lots to consider. Thanks for your calculations.
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06-15-2017, 07:50 AM
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#8
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northern, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2020 21C
Posts: 90
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I have the inverter, the 6V batteries, and the transfer switch.
If there is sun to charge via my solar panel I can use my Keurig coffee maker and microwave in the morning and my microwave and hair dryer at night. I stay mostly in Natl Parks or state parks without any hookups so as long as there is sun I am able to use every thing I need just like I would if I had electric hookup. I do like my setup!
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06-15-2017, 08:10 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 2013 19' & 2013 15B
Posts: 2,634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S
... What do you all use it for if you're not interested in sucking your batteries down that quickly for microwave, etc use? Thanks
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You are right, the inverter will suck the money out of your wallet during your trailer build, and will suck the energy out of your batteries later on when you use it.
I came from a background where most of my camping was in remote backcountry locations and a trailer was a huge luxury. At the time of our build, I could not imagine any possible use that I would have for an inverter and I went without. Any devices that I bring with me when camping will plug into any of the 12V outlets that I have inside the trailer. Four years after picking up our trailer, we still do not bring any devices with us that require being powered by 120V, even when we know that we will be staying at a site with power.
__________________
2013 19' \ 2013 15B, 2020 Toyota 4Runner TRD Offroad
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it." - 1907, Maurice Switzer
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06-15-2017, 08:19 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S
What I'm hearing from everyone is that the inverter and transfer switch may not be worth the $950 CAN cost at all. Using that much battery is not worth a cup of coffee or styled hair. I guess it should be considered an emergency back up? What do you all use it for if you're not interested in sucking your batteries down that quickly for microwave, etc use? Thanks
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Dan: A large inverter and solar to recharge are a relatively new phenomenon.This may be necessary for those that have a specific 120V power need when they are off the grid or just want ultimate flexibility and I respect that, but I also suspect that most do just fine without it and all the added complication. We don't have an inverter or solar and do just fine. May add solar to keep batteries topped up instead of running generator every couple of days when off grid. If you have something with a small 120V draw you can always use a small portable inverter plugged into a 12V outlet. Obviously only small electronics, no micro or hair dryer! Similar to this: www.amazon.com/Energizer-EN100-Compact-Direct-Inverter/dp/B00VMRHE7C?th=1
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06-15-2017, 08:45 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland, Oregon
Trailer: 2002 Escape 13'
Posts: 967
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I use my inverter all the time
I am putting in my vote for the value of having an inverter and transfer switch. I use my inverter all the time but not for long periods when camping remote. Some of my uses for 120 volts;
Remember when trying to calculate battery loss during inverter use that the inverter itself creates a huge drain in addition to the appliance under power.
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06-15-2017, 08:53 AM
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#12
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Trailer: 19' - Picking up November 29, 2017
Posts: 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
Dan: A large inverter and solar to recharge are a relatively new phenomenon.This may be necessary for those that have a specific 120V power need when they are off the grid or just want ultimate flexibility and I respect that, but I also suspect that most do just fine without it and all the added complication. We don't have an inverter or solar and do just fine. May add solar to keep batteries topped up instead of running generator every couple of days when off grid. If you have something with a small 120V draw you can always use a small portable inverter plugged into a 12V outlet. Obviously only small electronics, no micro or hair dryer! Similar to this: www.amazon.com/Energizer-EN100-Compact-Direct-Inverter/dp/B00VMRHE7C?th=1
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I do have a small inverter already. Your points are well taken. It's too bad we have to make decisions like this on a $30K rig before we really know how things are going to work out. They become very clear though once you take delivery, you just hope you placed your bets right - ha, ha.
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06-15-2017, 08:59 AM
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#13
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Trailer: 19' - Picking up November 29, 2017
Posts: 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotfishtacos
I am putting in my vote for the value of having an inverter and transfer switch. I use my inverter all the time but not for long periods when camping remote. Some of my uses for 120 volts;
Remember when trying to calculate battery loss during inverter use that the inverter itself creates a huge drain in addition to the appliance under power.
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Very good points 'hotfish'. You use it for the smaller conveniences. That's a lot of solar power - 350 watts and a large converter too - 2500 watts. "That's not a knife, this is a knife" per Crocidile Dundee. Thanks
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06-15-2017, 09:50 AM
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#14
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 11,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S
I do have a small inverter already. Your points are well taken. It's too bad we have to make decisions like this on a $30K rig before we really know how things are going to work out. They become very clear though once you take delivery, you just hope you placed your bets right - ha, ha.
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This is a concern. I think it's important if you've ever camped before... don't look back. You are NOT going that way. It's the future and how you would like that to look. Crystal ball anyone?
When I was working on my build sheet for Ten Forward, I choose a number of options based on my own ability to DIY or willingness to pay someone to do the work. Anything that needed to be run under the vinyl (wires) or anything to do with propane (quick connect outside), I added to the build sheet. Frankly, I like electricity! So yeah, I got the big inverter and the transfer switch to all plugs and dual 6v. I figure I don't need to use those options every day or even every time I camp... but I could. So, I consider those options... options when camping. Rather than just an either/or.
__________________
Donna D.
Ten Forward
2014 Escape 5.0TA
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06-15-2017, 10:02 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Middle, Tennessee
Trailer: 2017 Escape 19' #2
Posts: 1,441
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We got the inverter with only one outlet and no transfer switch. Our 120 volt needs are small and far and few between. We don't have a microwave so I could not see a need to power all the outlets. We have used a portable one a few times in the past so now it's built in if we should need it. For us it was a simpler way of having power with a little lower expense.
__________________
Tom
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06-15-2017, 10:02 AM
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#16
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Canmore, Alberta
Trailer: Escape 2017 19
Posts: 80
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Inverter
We have the dual six volts and solar with a small 200 watt portable inverter (no microwave). After a month in the trailer in May, we never used the portable inverter. Everything we use is 12 volt or propane
The solar package worked awesome, never had to worry about power.
Dave and Kim
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06-15-2017, 10:42 AM
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#17
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Trailer: 19' - Picking up November 29, 2017
Posts: 71
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Kind of where I'm headed Donna.
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06-15-2017, 10:51 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Arvada, Colorado
Trailer: 2015 E'21 - 'Velocity'. Tow: Toyota Tacoma V6, 4X4, manual.
Posts: 1,684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkirk
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After a month in the trailer in May, we never used the portable inverter. Everything we use is 12 volt or propane
Dave and Kim
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My experience is the same. I purchased a nice portable 1000 watt sine wave inverter on Amazon and after 2 years have yet to use it camping. I'll keep it around the house in case we loose power and I want to run the freezer or fridge from a battery.
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Alan
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06-15-2017, 11:07 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southwick, Massachusetts
Trailer: None, sold my 2014 5.0TA
Posts: 7,124
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I don't mind drawing down the batteries, as long as they stay above 50% for as long as I need them to, that's what they are for. With no inverter, I use 15-20 amps a day in the winter in the south. If I were to use 30 amps a day and the roof solar only put back 20 or them I could still go 8 or 9 days without needing another power source. If I put out the portable panel I could go a lot longer. If I didn't have solar I wouldn't get an inverter.
Just added a 1000w inverter for the sole purpose of running an electric blanket for an hour or so a day when it's cold. If the price was more of a concern we would do without, like we have for the last 2 winters. It's a want, not a need.
__________________
Happy Motoring
Bob
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06-15-2017, 11:24 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: O town, British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21 "Lightning"
Posts: 1,467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan S
I'm working on my build sheet and I'm wondering if anyone has input regarding the kind of drain I can expect with two fully charged 6 volts when using the inverter/transfer switch for items like a toaster, hair dryer, microwave, etc. For example, what would happen if I let the micro run for approx 10 minutes at 1000 watts. It seems as if you're getting the inverter, you may as well go all the way and power all your 120 outlets with the transfer switch option also - right?
Thanks,
Dan S
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Dan, you might want to do an energy audit. Plugging your own numbers in to the worksheet will be a worth while exercise. There are many on the internet, but this one by Go Power is a good starter.
Size Your Go Power! Solar or Inverter System | Go Power!
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