Advice on replacing the Go Power inverter with a hybrid inverter - Escape Trailer Owners Community
Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×

Go Back   Escape Trailer Owners Community > Escape Tech > Modifications and Alterations
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-11-2021, 01:49 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Seattle, Washington
Trailer: Escape 21NE
Posts: 30
Advice on replacing the Go Power inverter with a hybrid inverter

Is it feasible to replace the Go Power inverter with a hybrid inverter (like the Victron Multiplus or Magnum Hybrid 3000W) running off AGMs?

Here are the details... on our 21NE we have the solar option with the Go Power GP-ISW-1500 inverter and the GP-PWM-30-UL solar controller. We also have a Honda EU2200i that runs on propane - it runs the air conditioner without issue. We are happy with this system and are comfortable boondocking even in hot weather.

To extend our boondocking time, I swapped out the two 20lb propane tanks for two 30lb tanks. That makes the tongue weight a little too high. So the plan is to swap out the dual 6V Interstate batteries that are up front with dual Trojan AGM 12V 135Ahr batteries and put them in back under the bed. To do this requires pulling some pretty thick battery cables up to the Go Power inverter up front.

That got me to consider another option and then to realize there might be a problem with the AGM plan...

Why not put a hybrid inverter like the Victron MultiPlus 3000W or the Magnum 3000W in the back with the batteries and intercept the 120V 30A power line going up front to the surge protector?

It seems like this could be a nice configuration where the generator could run in eco mode extending boondocking time. When the A/C and other intermittent loads kick in, the hybrid inverter and batteries would provide a boost as the generator increases speed to cover the load.

It seems like this modification would be pretty easy to do... bring the trailer 30a line into the inverter and have the output continue to the surge protector. Connect up the batteries (that are now nearby) and pull a 12V battery line back to the inverter.

But that makes me wonder about battery charging. In this configuration there would be 3 chargers: (1) the new hybrid inverter/charger, (2) the Go Power solar controller, and (3) the charger built into the WF-8955 panel.

Any idea if that works and the 3 chargers would play nicely together?

The Victron and the Go Power chargers are smart about charging the batteries and are designed to work with another charger. They also support multiple battery chemistries like the AGMs. So it seems likely they could work together.

On the other hand the WF-8955 charger doesn't seem very smart and it has no ability to be set to work with the AGMs. This seems like a problem even with the simpler plan of swapping the 6V flooded for the 12V AGMs in the back.

Any advice here would be appreciated! And open to other alternatives that would be good to consider.
Crash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 09:21 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
AuthorSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Portland, Maine
Trailer: 2023 Escape 5.0TA
Posts: 233
I wish I could help, but I am really interested in this thread. Could you explain how a hybrid inverter is different from the stock one?
AuthorSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 09:41 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Seattle, Washington
Trailer: Escape 21NE
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuthorSP View Post
I wish I could help, but I am really interested in this thread. Could you explain how a hybrid inverter is different from the stock one?
From the Victron Multiplus manual, their hybrid inverter has two key features:
  • PowerAssist – Extended use of your generator and shore current: the MultiPlus “co-supply” feature
    This feature enables the MultiPlus to supplement the capacity of the alternative source. Where peak power is so often required only for a limited period, the MultiPlus will make sure that insufficient shore or generator power is immediately compensated for by power from the battery. When the load reduces, the spare power is used to recharge the battery.

    This unique feature offers a definitive solution for the ‘shore current problem’: high power electric tools, dish washers, washing machines, electric cooking etc. can all run on 16A shore current, or even less. In addition, a smaller generator can be installed.

  • PowerControl – maximum use of limited shore current
    The MultiPlus can supply a huge charging current. This implies heavy loading of the shore connection or generator set. Therefore a maximum current can be set. The MultiPlus then takes other power users into account, and only uses 'surplus' current for charging purposes.


The Magnum hybrid inverters have essentially similar features.
Crash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 09:46 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
AuthorSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Portland, Maine
Trailer: 2023 Escape 5.0TA
Posts: 233
Thanks! So sort of like a short term UPS.
AuthorSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 09:52 AM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Seattle, Washington
Trailer: Escape 21NE
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuthorSP View Post
Thanks! So sort of like a short term UPS.
Yes it is similar - however a typical UPS provides power to devices from either the line OR the battery.

In a hybrid inverter it is line powered PLUS battery powered. That means your total power output can be larger (more amps) than the line can provide.

So with the hybrid you could hook up a lower watt generator or use a regular 15a household plug and still handle surge loads like the A/C starting up or the A/C plus fridge, microwave, and hair dryer all the same time.
Crash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 10:48 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Centex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
.... But that makes me wonder about battery charging. In this configuration there would be 3 chargers: (1) the new hybrid inverter/charger, (2) the Go Power solar controller, and (3) the charger built into the WF-8955 panel.

Any idea if that works and the 3 chargers would play nicely together?
IMO when you install an 'all-in-one unit' (inverter + charger + transfer switch) such as those mentioned (or even an all-in-one inverter + charger + transfer switch such as the xantrex Freedom XC which lacks the 'hybrid / boost' feature of the mentioned Multiplus and Magnum models):
  • Not only does the OE inverter become redundant (unnecessary) but so does the OE charger
  • Attempts to integrate the OE charger with the new all-in-one inverter + charger + transfer switch are fraught with unnecessary complications and incompatibilities
  • Likely your best approach is to abandon use of the OE charger function and let the all-in-one inverter + charger + transfer switch provide that complete functionality as it is designed to do
FYI This thread might be of interest. Though it's growing long and much of the discussion relates to lithium batteries, there's also a wealth of information about installation of an 'all-in-one' inverter + charger + transfer switch in lieu of an OE inverter and separate charger. In that thread rubicon327 (Dave) goes into significant detail, including schematic diagrams, about how he chose to integrate such a unit with the OE WF-xxxx charger (ultimately deciding to abandon the charger-section of the WFCO but retain use of its fuse/distribution panel functions).

Please note that all of this applies whether or not the all-in-one inverter + charger + transfer switch unit you use provides the 'hybrid / boost' feature. That feature is wholly integral to the 'all-in-one' units offering it and has essentially no bearing on how the unit 'integrates' with the rest of the trailer's components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
.... So the plan is to swap out the dual 6V Interstate batteries that are up front with dual Trojan AGM 12V 135Ahr batteries and put them in back under the bed. ...
BTW, not sure if you realize but please don't forget that while AGM batteries are designed to preclude liquid leakage most AGM's (including Trojans) can and do vent dangerous (potentially explosive) gasses and MUST be placed in an enclosure that's sealed / isolated from the interior spaces of your trailer with provisions for venting those dangerous gasses to the exterior (and away from potential ignition sources such as furnace, water heater, and 3-way refrigerator vents/access hatches).

Just for your consideration, Have Fun!
__________________
Alan E.
2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 Lariat SuperCab 6.5' box / Centex's 2021 5.0 Modifications
Centex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 03:37 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
richm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Houston, Texas
Trailer: 2022 5.0TA
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
To do this requires pulling some pretty thick battery cables up to the Go Power inverter up front.
Yea, the amount of current consumed by the inverter makes this tricky. This inverter can draw 125 Amps continuous. The longer the distance, the larger the the wire size required to avoid overheating. In addition, there is a voltage drop across the wire, which results in a a power loss under load. Shortening the distance between inverter and battery has multiple advantages.
richm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 04:26 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Seattle, Washington
Trailer: Escape 21NE
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by richm View Post
Yea, the amount of current consumed by the inverter makes this tricky. This inverter can draw 125 Amps continuous. The longer the distance, the larger the the wire size required to avoid overheating. In addition, there is a voltage drop across the wire, which results in a a power loss under load. Shortening the distance between inverter and battery has multiple advantages.
Fully agree.

BTW, that is what got me thinking about putting the inverter in the back. And was noting how much more efficient a 120V AC cable is over distance, and that's what led to the idea of intercepting the 30A shore power line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex View Post
Likely your best approach is to abandon use of the OE charger function and let the all-in-one inverter + charger + transfer switch provide that complete functionality as it is designed to do

FYI This thread might be of interest. Though it's growing long and much of the discussion relates to lithium batteries, there's also a wealth of information about installation of an 'all-in-one' inverter + charger + transfer switch in lieu of an OE inverter and separate charger. In that thread rubicon327 (Dave) goes into significant detail, including schematic diagrams, about how he chose to integrate such a unit with the OE WF-xxxx charger (ultimately deciding to abandon the charger-section of the WFCO but retain use of its fuse/distribution panel functions).
Thank you! Yeah, that makes sense. I was wondering if it was possible to turn off the charger in the WF-8955 but didn't see anything in the manual. But this thread suggests all I need to do is disconnect the power to the WF-9855 charger.

Hopefully that is all I need to do. If that is the case, then this conversion leaves almost all the existing wiring, fuses, and such in place while not using the Go Power inverter or the WF-9855 charger and essentially ignoring the transfer switch on the back of the WF. Probably the hardest part would be pulling a hefty 12V line from the under dinette storage area back to under the bed to power the 12V circuits and connect the solar controller charger. I'll draw up a circuit diagram and share to see if it all makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex View Post
BTW, not sure if you realize but please don't forget that while AGM batteries are designed to preclude liquid leakage most AGM's (including Trojans) can and do vent dangerous (potentially explosive) gasses and MUST be placed in an enclosure that's sealed / isolated from the interior spaces of your trailer with provisions for venting those dangerous gasses to the exterior (and away from potential ignition sources such as furnace, water heater, and 3-way refrigerator vents/access hatches).
Thanks for this advice. I was thinking AGMs were safer inside but hadn't considered the enclosure work. Given this it may just make more sense to buy lithium - safer, no enclosure or venting work, and saves on weight - but more expensive.
Crash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2021, 05:57 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Centex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
Arrow Taking a step back for just a moment ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
... on our 21NE we have the solar option with the Go Power GP-ISW-1500 inverter and the GP-PWM-30-UL solar controller. We also have a Honda EU2200i that runs on propane - it runs the air conditioner without issue. We are happy with this system and are comfortable boondocking even in hot weather.

To extend our boondocking time, I swapped out the two 20lb propane tanks for two 30lb tanks. That makes the tongue weight a little too high.
IF indeed the first highlighted statement is true, and the only problem you really need to address is the second (weight distribution), then it strikes me your 'solution' involves a lot of self-induced and perhaps unnecessary complication, cost, inefficiency, and effort.

Have you considered that a carefully selected Lithium storage pack with useable capacity similar to your current FLA batteries (noting that not all Ah 'ratings' are 'equal', particularly when it comes to lithium vs lead-acid chemistries like FLA and AGM)
  • Will likely be much lighter than the FLA or AGM batteries
  • Will likely be much smaller footprint than the FLA or AGM batteries
  • Could likely lend to placement somewhere under the front dinette, at least several feet closer to the trailer axles than the current FLA battery location
  • With the aggregate effect that your weight distribution problem might be significantly mitigated?
  • While avoiding the downsides that come with the relatively long-runs of low-voltage but relatively high-current power distribution (inherent to one degree or another in any of your scenarios with the batteries relocated to under the bed)
The only reason I posit this 'step-back perspective' is that nothing in your original problem/goal statements indicate you need or would particularly benefit from
  • Upsizing from a 1500W inverter to a 3kW inverter
  • Adding 'hybrid / boost' capabilities
  • Increasing the useable Ah of your battery storage
IF you don't really need those features, their elimination can go a long way toward offsetting the cost of lithium and likely lead to a much simpler and more readily implementable solution. We note that there are several relatively easy and cost-effective WF-xxxx upgrades which will accommodate a change to lithium storage / charging.

IF in fact you have need or want of those new/added features, that's OK, but then I suggest you carefully consider and revise your project's problem/goal statement accordingly. IME (a career in engineering design) having an accurate and complete problem/goal statement, and regularly checking how each element of a solution does or does not align with those objectives during the design/planning process, is hugely beneficial when it comes to realizing best end-solutions.

It's sometimes necessary (and desirable) to revise the project problem/goal statement, but making that a conscious, considered, and documented part of the process can help manage 'scope-creep' and help ensure the project remains on-track to best outcomes all the way through to realization.

Just for your consideration, Have Fun!
__________________
Alan E.
2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 Lariat SuperCab 6.5' box / Centex's 2021 5.0 Modifications
Centex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2021, 12:35 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Redwood City, California
Trailer: 2017 Escape 19
Posts: 286
I have/had a similar setup to this in my 19 and was really happy with it.

Technically the Victron will play OKish with the WFCO, but you're better off with just the Victron. The Multiplus might see the higher voltage from the WFCO and back off, so you'd get a slower and less-smart charge with the two combined than the Victron alone.

The charger portion of the WFCO is very easy to bypass - basically just disconnect it and don't reconnect it. Optionally, you can unscrew the charger assembly and pull the whole thing out while leaving the fuse and breaker portion in place. It's nice and modular.

As others have pointed out, you'll also want to ditch the second built-in inverter. Just run everything through the Victron. Shore->EMS->Victron->Panel.

The Solar charger should play OK with the Victron. There's some chance it won't charge as quickly as it could when plugged in if the solar is going, but in practice I haven't found it to be a problem.

I'd definitely look at LFP batteries over AGM. They're actually about as cheap for usable capacity, and the higher cycle life means AGM is often the more expensive option in the long run. In addition to avoiding venting issues, the higher current capacity will let you take better advantage of both the high-capacity inverter and the high-power charge support. Very handy when you're using hybrid mode to assist and running a heavy periodic load like an AC off the generator.

When it's aggressively using the hybrid mode (fill batteries at full charge rate when AC is off, pull from batteries at a high rate when AC is on), it does generate a decent amount of heat. You'll probably want some sort of ventilation, and maybe a fan. Mine's in the driver-side bench compartment and I've had to open it up to let heat out a couple times. The under-bed space might be big enough that it's not an issue though, and you can always just open the cabinet doors.

I did find that the generator's smart "eco" mode and the Victron's smart hybrid mode interacted a bit oddly sometimes, and the generator would surge up and down trying to keep up while the Victron toggled in and out of hybrid mode. I just turned it off eco and took advantage of the high charge rate to run it at full speed for a shorter amount of time.
Defenestrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2021, 06:48 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Perry Butler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Thank you! Yeah, that makes sense. I was wondering if it was possible to turn off the charger in the WF-8955 but didn't see anything in the manual. But this thread suggests all I need to do is disconnect the power to the WF charger.
I merely pulled two fuses on on WF-8955 and the charger is off.

We've been running without the WF charger since last March and the solar has no problems keeping our batteries full. If we didn't have solar and the camper located in perfect orientation to the sun (solar panels facing the south) in our seasonal site, I'd purchase a standalone charger. IMO, that WF charger is a cheap piece of crap.

Enjoy,

Perry
__________________
Those who know everything use pens. Intelligent people use pencils.
Perry Butler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2021, 12:09 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryb67 View Post
I merely pulled two fuses on on WF-8955 and the charger is off.
The two 40-amp reverse polarity fuses in the WFCO power centre? That doesn't really turn the charger/converter off - it just disconnects the output so the charger is powered whenever there is shore power, but sitting idle and unable to power the trailer's DC systems. You would need to remove AC power input to actually turn it off - that can be just turning off the breaker (if it doesn't run anything else) or disconnecting the AC wires.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Escape Trailer Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2023 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.