Electrical wiring help needed

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Oh boy. One thing doing that on a bench but how do you contort with a soldering iron in the trailer? Many of these splices are grouped tight together and in odd spots.

[camp4528]

Who volunteers to make the NASA split video with 6AWG wire?

It’s very interesting. Thanks for this.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Oh boy. One thing doing that on a bench but how do you contort with a soldering iron in the trailer? Many of these splices are grouped tight together and in odd spots.

You don't use the soldering iron until the wires have been twisted together. Then space is not so much of an issue as you are only using the tip of the soldering iron to touch the wires.

You did ask what was the best way, didn't you?

This method has been around for many years - it used to be called the Western Union splice method, then the Lineman's splice, now it's the NASA splice. NASA requires all splices to done using this method due to it's reliability.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Wow! That is one very expensive 7-pin connector. I ordered mine from Amazon and I am very pleased with the quality. The wire color coding matches our trailers.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Yeah I know. Jon V mentioned the harness was very high quality so I thought I could put something together from separate parts. Probably not.

[Greg A]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Greg: What is the best replacement for these again?

Just been using heat shrink butt splice connectors sized appropriately for the two wires on one side and one on the other. Not as nice as that Nasa splice, but much simpler and seem to be providing a better more solid connection when heat shrunk than those quick splice connectors.
If Space X starts taking our RV's to the moon for vacation, I probably would consider the NASA splice.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-...4126/202522618

[Greg A]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Yeah I know. Jon V mentioned the harness was very high quality so I thought I could put something together from separate parts. Probably not.

I didn't really need to change the cable, it was still fine. Just got the box for the cable set that tdf recommended. It looks like a good box and will certainly do the job vs what ETI did.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Greg A

Just been using heat shrink butt splice connectors sized appropriately for the two wires on one side and one on the other. Not as nice as that Nasa splice, but much simpler and seem to be providing a better more solid connection when heat shrunk than those quick splice connectors.
If Space X starts taking our RV's to the moon for vacation, I probably would consider the NASA splice.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-...4126/202522618

For some of the methods I use, you have to consider that I'm pickier about electrical than most - oh heck, let's make that pretty much more than anybody I know.

Butt splice connectors, if done correctly, work just fine. Are they as good as a NASA splice - no. Are they good enough - of course!

[Greg A]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

For some of the methods I use, you have to consider that I'm pickier about electrical than most - oh heck, let's make that pretty much more than anybody I know.
Butt splice connectors, if done correctly, work just fine. Are they as good as a NASA splice - no. Are they good enough - of course!

I enjoy and learn from your pickiness!
I'm just thankful that you verified my heat shrunk butt connectors are good enough to replace those quick splice connectors that are questionable at best. Otherwise, I'd have to go back and redo a bunch of butt connectors that have been done.
I'll consider that I might pass inspection when we're next at Quartzsite.

[Vermilye]

I'd suggest using heat shrink versions of any crimp connectors. They usually have longer insulated sections & when you heat shrink them the insulation bonds to the wire insulation, sealing the mount.

For connections that you are often redoing, I have had good success with WAGO connectors. They are available in 2 - 8 connections, parallel feed throughs, etc. Just be sure you purchase actual WAGO brand connectors. There are some cheap knock offs that don't work as well.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I'd suggest using heat shrink versions of any crimp connectors. They usually have longer insulated sections & when you heat shrink them the insulation bonds to the wire insulation, sealing the mount.

For connections that you are often redoing, I have had good success with WAGO connectors. They are available in 2 - 8 connections, parallel feed throughs, etc. Just be sure you purchase actual WAGO brand connectors. There are some cheap knock offs that don't work as well.

Wago and Phoenix contact are both excellent products.
https://www.phoenixcontact.com/onlin.../usen/web/home
https://www.wago.com/us/

Here's the funny part - they are both German companies! I used to work for Bayer (also German) and we were encouraged to use German products. Sometimes that didn't work out that well but with these two companies - they really are the best connectors made.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

The -12V "ground stack", the bolt in the back of the WFCO power station will eventually get full as you add circuits. In both trailers I added a ground buss to make it easier to add connections.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post367166

I followed your lead and installed a ground buss directly above the WFCO. Moving the negative return wires from the stud to the buss used up all twelve grounding screws. So, if I need to add more circuits - I will have to upsize the buss or put them on the stud. Here's the buss I used.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The grounds now have a much better place to land!

Thanks, Jon.

[Jwinfrey]

Just as an FYI, the divot from the crimper needs to be on the other side (solid side) of the terminal. You can see where doing it on the side with the split distorts the barrel and the connection is weak.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Jwinfrey

Just as an FYI, the divot from the crimper needs to be on the other side (solid side) of the terminal. You can see where doing it on the side with the split distorts the barrel and the connection is weak.

Yes thanks. That was an existing crimp done by Escape that was not the best and I will redo.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Yes thanks. That was an existing crimp done by Escape that was not the best and I will redo.

Escape has done some questionable wiring practices in the past.

I was installing new lighted switches for the awning power last week but as soon as I disconnected the wiring from the switch, the wire supplying power fell off from where it was connected inside the wall.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post365844

So, out comes the tools to cut open the paneling. What I found was two yellow crimp connectors that were poorly done inside the walls.

The first yellow crimp connector (pic 1) was supplying power to both the awning and the outside light - that was the crimp connector the wire to the awning switch fell off of. The second yellow crimp connector (pic 2) was the negative wiring for both circuits and pulled up so tight to the wood framing, it was pulling the wires out of the crimp.

So, pull new wire runs to get rid of the crimps and to repower the awning as a dedicated circuit. That was the other issue that I had put off and needed to do - the awning power is required by Dometic to be on a circuit to itself but instead, it was daisy chained with every 12v device on the passenger side of the trailer. From Dometic 9500e manual "Connection to power supply MUST be on a separate (15 A) circuit."

So that project snowballed to where I found more crimp connectors behind the walls under the kitchen cabinets that required more paneling to be cut for access and repair.

Thank goodness for the vinyl oak repair tape - all the paneling is back in place now and not noticeable that it had been cut.

I've had my Escape now for four years and still finding screwups from whoever wired my trailer.

ps. I know everyone is tired of hearing it - but making crimp connections inside an inaccessible wall partition is a violation of electrical code. I know, Tom's at it again!

[tdf-texas]

Project for this week.

Jon Vermille came up the idea to add a buss bar to land the negative return wires for the trailer. Great idea Jon! So of course, I'm going to do the same.

Ordered a 12 position copper buss bar, removed all the negative return wires from the lug on the back of the WFCO, and installed the buss bar just above the WFCO enclosure. (pic 1).

Great! Buss bar looks good and neat - project complete. Uh, not so fast!

When I had all the negative returns disconnected, the lights above the drives side dinette and down the length of the trailer are still on! Quick circuit check and sure nuff - those drivers side 12v circuit negative returns are not going back to the WFCO negative buss but are instead, somehow, tied to the trailer frame ground. My guess is they are connected to the trailer stop/turn/tail light negative that is grounded at the 7-pin connector.

Well, new project this week. Trace out all the wires, remove from trailer ground, and rerun the wiring so the negative return wiring goes to the WFCO negative buss.

I'll have to wait until Monday to start as I have, again, run out of 14 ga zip wire to rerun the circuits with. I've bought two 100 ft spools before thinking that would be enough - Hah! Sometimes, I really think it would have been better and faster to have just ripped out every wire Escape installed and started over.

ps. It's not just my trailer. My real estate rep swore she would never sell another house to an electrical engineer after I was finished having the building contractor redo numerous wiring screwups on my new house. My favorite quote: " we do this all the time and have many houses wired this way". After I reminded him of the electrical code requirement and discussed having the local electrical inspector review those other houses he did, I never heard that again.

[Greg A]

Trying to learn here, Tom.
The WFCO post goes to a frame ground, and any negative connection made there is essentially a frame ground. Why are the DS lights going to a frame ground wherever vs going to the frame ground post behind the WFCO an issue?
My battery negative goes to a frame ground and doesn’t come inside the trailer. This will change once the batteries move inside, but that is how ETI has it currently wired.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Greg A

Trying to learn here, Tom.
The WFCO post goes to a frame ground, and any negative connection made there is essentially a frame ground. Why are the DS lights going to a frame ground wherever vs going to the frame ground post behind the WFCO an issue?
My battery negative goes to a frame ground and doesn’t come inside the trailer. This will change once the batteries move inside, but that is how ETI has it currently wired.

The frame ground is actually not the point of return for the 12v circuits - it's the battery negative post or the converter negative return. The battery / converter negative is tied to frame ground because of the emergency brake circuit, the power jack, and safety in case of a circuit short to ground.

Using the frame ground increases the voltage drop over the circuit as steel has a higher electrical resistance than copper. Also, frame ground connections on a trailer are usually done exposed to the elements and corrode. That causes, at times, some strange things to happen to the circuit as the connection resistance increases. Now, does it really matter? Not so much but remember - I'm really picky when it comes to electrical stuff.

Now the buried crimp connectors - again if they are done properly and never fail, it's not much of a problem. In my case, they had failed and finding them behind the paneling was a pain.

[Greg A]

So, if I understand correctly, the frame ground is not incorrect, just less efficient?
When you put in the bus bar did you remove the frame ground and put a direct line from new bus to battery negative?

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Greg A

So, if I understand correctly, the frame ground is not incorrect, just less efficient?
When you put in the bus bar did you remove the frame ground and put a direct line from new bus to battery negative?

The frame ground is still connected to the WFCO post along with the battery negative, the converter negative, and a jumper from the post to the negative buss bar.

That's why all the 12v circuits in the trailer died when I disconnected the negative returns - except the drivers side stuff. Those were getting the negative return through the frame ground to the WFCO post, and then to the battery /converter negative.

The overhead lighting devices did have a negative return wire that tied to the negative buss - but the drivers side circuit was joined with the overhead circuit with a splice. That caused what is called a "ground loop" - a wire connected to two return paths.

edit: It took me a while to remember that your trailer has the frame ground for the battery negative return. My 21 doesn't used the frame as a current path as the batteries are mounted within inches of the converter, connected directly to the WFCO post, and all circuit returns went to the WFCO post.

[Greg A]

TY, got it.