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Old 04-03-2021, 10:45 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg A View Post
I'm in the middle of this now, Dave. I'm putting 2 - Battleborn 100ah under the DS dinette bench. I'd highly recommend two if you can swing it.
No battery case needed. I'm building the battery tray (1/2" board) right now that will go directly in front of the black tank and have hold down straps for the batteries. BMV-712 Shunt mounts on the left front of the battery board and new 7pin splice box on the right side of the board. Directly in front of that will be vertical equipment board with Victron MPPT controller and DC to DC converter for charge line.(The DC to DC will be switched like Jon's as may not always need it live when moving)
Adding port for portable solar in front and putting a bus bar for roof panel and portable lines tying into the solar controller.
Blue Sea battery disconnect switch.

Go Power 2000w Inverter under PS front Dinette Bench. Go Power 30a xfer switch with 15a accessory line on shore power side. Go Power remote on PS bench front.
I'm going to do something a bit different that I found on several videos. When I change the converter to the Wildkat, I will not wire the AC side to the breaker, but instead will wire it to the 15A accessory line coming off the shore power side of the xfer switch eliminating the need for a sub panel. The AC line off the EMS will just flip over to the xfer switch leaving the wiring intact to the WFCO. Then I'll run a new AC line from EMS to xfer switch.
Inverter will have 4/0 cables from battery and then AC line in to xfer switch.

Not rushing since nowhere I need to be going right now. Plan to have all the structural in by end of January, then buy the batteries in Feb, drop them in, wire up and go.
The 19 is great for this project as all the wiring points needed are right there under the Dinette. I don't think I'd be taking all this on myself for weekend camping as the solar-twin 6v have been ample for 5 years, but in August this will be our home for about 9mos+ out of the year.
Greg: Any updates with your install? Maybe I missed them on another thread. We’re committed. 400AH Bestgo LiFePO4 lithium battery from Electric Car Parts, 30A GoPower transfer switch, 18A Victron DC-DC charger, Victron BMV-712 battery monitor all on the way. Inverter purchase is next after some research. Converter/charger already upgraded with Progressive Dynamics replacement- just need to move the jumper. I think our configurations will be very similar if not exact. We just don’t have solar (yet).
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Old 04-03-2021, 12:40 PM   #42
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Awesome, Dave. I knew you were close to pulling the trigger.
I have the EMS completed to the Xfer switch, Xfer switch to WFCO completed, Xfer to Inverter done, BMV 712 done, Victron MPPT 100|30 done, Victron DC-DC done, new 7pin termination box done, battery base/hold down done, Inverter base done.
Remaining items are: remote inverter switch mounted, marine two gang switch to control power tongue jack and DC to DC, Install Wildkat (wires are waiting in the WFCO from accessory Xfer switch so should be simple).
I can probably finish up and onboard the batteries in an afternoon, but I'm finishing a Scamp 19 to sell this month. I don't need the Escape till May so dorking along on it. One thing is the simplicity of no sub-panel for me was the right move, wiring it all up was very easy with this method.
Can't wait to see your progress, especially how you decide to do the solar.
One Tip for anyone doing rewiring, I found West Marine supplies all the guages of Marine wire by the foot. Very reasonable and you don't end up having to buy a 25+ foot roll and end up with a bunch left over. Also, allows you to buy black and red in the quantities needed so not substituting red for grounds with black electrical tap around it.
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Old 04-03-2021, 06:42 PM   #43
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Did you notice that caveat about 3000-5000 charge cycles at 0.5 degrees Celcius? That's about 33F. Just a smidge above freezing. The perfect battery for Alaska? I live in southern California, and it almost never gets that cold. So, how many charge cycles do you get when you charge at normal summertime temperatures?
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Old 04-03-2021, 06:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by KatrinaOstby View Post
Did you notice that caveat about 3000-5000 charge cycles at 0.5 degrees Celcius?
In which specification document, for which battery? The Bestgo package which Dave has ordered says:
Quote:
≥ 3000 times @ 80% DOD, ± C/3, 23°C
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Old 04-03-2021, 08:01 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg A View Post
Awesome, Dave. I knew you were close to pulling the trigger.
I have the EMS completed to the Xfer switch, Xfer switch to WFCO completed, Xfer to Inverter done, BMV 712 done, Victron MPPT 100|30 done, Victron DC-DC done, new 7pin termination box done, battery base/hold down done, Inverter base done.
Remaining items are: remote inverter switch mounted, marine two gang switch to control power tongue jack and DC to DC, Install Wildkat (wires are waiting in the WFCO from accessory Xfer switch so should be simple).
I can probably finish up and onboard the batteries in an afternoon, but I'm finishing a Scamp 19 to sell this month. I don't need the Escape till May so dorking along on it. One thing is the simplicity of no sub-panel for me was the right move, wiring it all up was very easy with this method.
Can't wait to see your progress, especially how you decide to do the solar.
One Tip for anyone doing rewiring, I found West Marine supplies all the guages of Marine wire by the foot. Very reasonable and you don't end up having to buy a 25+ foot roll and end up with a bunch left over. Also, allows you to buy black and red in the quantities needed so not substituting red for grounds with black electrical tap around it.
Greg: Glad to hear it is moving along well. That is a lot of work! One question for you...how are you handling the circuit protection for the converter/charger which is taken off the power center breaker and wired to the normally closed contacts in the GoPower transfer switch?Some wiring schematics show a 15A fuse inline but I believe that needs to be furnished by the installer.

Also any particular reason you went with the GoPower GP-ISW2000? I’m looking at this one as an option by AIMS
https://www.amazon.com/PWRI200012120...FV52GZ03D4G1Z0
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Old 04-03-2021, 11:15 PM   #46
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Hey Dave,
Yes, you need to install a 15A circuit breaker on the accessory run over to the converter in the WFCO. In the attached pic you'll see I drilled the side of the Xfer switch and put this resettable 15A breaker in. https://amzn.to/3sQEakG
The pic is final wiring of the Xfer switch with the WFCO orange on top lugs, darker orange EMS/shore power to middle lugs, and yellow to plug for inverter bottom lugs. Interesting note, GoPower support told me middle lugs are dominant, so even if the inverter is on and you plug into shore power it will switch over to the dominant position. (Shore Power)
I looked at the AIMS and a very good choice, reviews look excellent. I was originally looking at the GoPower 1500, but Jon V said if he did it over he'd want the 2000W. Amazon dropped their price on the 2000W and I ordered it. So I guess it's Jon's pick that I ended up with the GP 2000.
FYI, I backed up the truck and plugged the 7pin in to test the new junction box. Everything passed, including the new DC-DC charger came alive and started delivering 12.2V. I dialed it up to 13.6 for the lead acid and will dial up to 14.4 when I onboard the Lithiums. Went ahead and sealed up the 7 pin box, all done and ready.
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Old 04-05-2021, 02:02 PM   #47
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Question BestGo internal fuse ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
Dave: I’m very intrigued with this battery you mention. 400AH for close to the price of 200AH if I went with two Battle Born.
https://www.electriccarpartscompany....-battery-packs
I share your intrigue and that's caused me to explore the BestGo/ECPC 400Ah option a bit over the weekend (thanks to 'the other Dave' for forwarding your BestGo correspondence ). I'd previously determined that 2xBattleBorn BB10012 (paralleled for a nominal battery bank rating of 200Ah and a 30-second discharge rating of 400Amps) will meet my peak-current demands, but twice the Ah rating for longer 'carry' at a competitive price is seductive.

One thing that caught my eye and I would welcome comment about: The BestGo literature makes reference to an internal 250Amp "slow-blow" fuse as one if its protective devices. That's comfortably above the battery's continuous discharge rating (150A) and 30-minute discharge rating (200A), though below the 15-second and 0.5 second discharge ratings of 400A and 650A respectively.

When would one expect that internal (non-owner serviceable) 250A fuse to come into play? Should one have any concern that there's a non-owner serviceable fuse in the battery (as opposed to all auto-resetting internal protective features)? It's my understanding that when a "slow-blow" fuse is subjected to very short-duration current slightly above its limit it will 'erode' and effectively reduce the duration it will carry upon another 'borderline' exceedance (it becomes a 'quicker-blow' fuse?).

We all hope that we don't screw-up and 'trip' protective features, but the notion of one being non-serviceable IF tripped does raise at least a 'yellow' flag for me. Should it, or is that a baseless yellow flag?

I note that the BattleBorn does not mention non-serviceable internal protective devices, apparently relying on its multiple 'auto-resetting' BMS limits (which includes a 'trip' when discharge >400A for 0.5-seconds). BattleBorn states that all of its various BMS protective cutoffs will reset 5-seconds after the fault/exceedance is cleared. BattleBorn does recommend the use of an external fuse, and I am planning on a Type-T (very fast-blow) fuse for that purpose, but that will be rated to 'clamp' the peak discharge of the battery bank (400A for 2xBB10012).
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Old 04-05-2021, 03:05 PM   #48
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Wiring schematic - lithium upgrade

Hoping to get some feedback. I put together a wiring diagram using the schematic from tdf-texas as a base and reconfiguring as required. Need this to help visualize what I'm going to do.

Some things you will notice:
-Rewiring the converter/charger to be powered off the shore power side of the transfer switch which allows the main distribution panel to be powered by the inverter. Selective powering of microwave, outlets, mini-split A/C possible without the need for a sub-panel. (Thanks to Greg A for the idea)
-The Victron BMV-712 battery monitor N.O. output will be used to drive a contactor to shut down power to the inverter once the battery reaches a pre-programmed level. In my case 11.2-12V which is the preferred low point for lithium (2.8 -3V per cell). Not interested in letting the battery ever get down to the internal BMS cut-off of 10V which is 2.5V per cell. (Thanks to Semievolved for the idea)
-Victron Orion Smart 18A DC-DC charger will be installed to regulate proper tow vehicle charge. If charge is not needed while towing it can be isolated with the battery disconnect switch.

Any comments would be appreciated.
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Old 04-05-2021, 05:35 PM   #49
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I imagine when I saw that it was a 250A slow-burn fuse and realized that's over 3,000W, I knew I wouldn't be close to pushing that. But, I think I gave you Tony's email and you should feel free to contact him about that. Carl at ECPC is very nice but doesn't have the technical depth you are probing. From what I can gather about Tony, he would be very helpful in the event that fuse were blown and instruct you how to replace it although I am guessing the warranty might be an issue. Are you thinking you might be pulling above 3000 watts?

At any rate, it sounds to me like you are much more comfortable with the Battleborn and I think that's great. It really is a judgement call we each make four ourselves. I've confirmed twice that the Bestgo has about 10% more than advertised/guaranteed capacity. Typically, if they are good at the start with no bad cells and a capable BMS and balancer, they will last way longer than the warranty period. And, at half the price of the BB, all it has to do is last half as long and it will be equivalent.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex View Post
I share your intrigue and that's caused me to explore the BestGo/ECPC 400Ah option a bit over the weekend (thanks to 'the other Dave' for forwarding your BestGo correspondence ). I'd previously determined that 2xBattleBorn BB10012 (paralleled for a nominal battery bank rating of 200Ah and a 30-second discharge rating of 400Amps) will meet my peak-current demands, but twice the Ah rating for longer 'carry' at a competitive price is seductive.

One thing that caught my eye and I would welcome comment about: The BestGo literature makes reference to an internal 250Amp "slow-blow" fuse as one if its protective devices. That's comfortably above the battery's continuous discharge rating (150A) and 30-minute discharge rating (200A), though below the 15-second and 0.5 second discharge ratings of 400A and 650A respectively.

When would one expect that internal (non-owner serviceable) 250A fuse to come into play? Should one have any concern that there's a non-owner serviceable fuse in the battery (as opposed to all auto-resetting internal protective features)? It's my understanding that when a "slow-blow" fuse is subjected to very short-duration current slightly above its limit it will 'erode' and effectively reduce the duration it will carry upon another 'borderline' exceedance (it becomes a 'quicker-blow' fuse?).

We all hope that we don't screw-up and 'trip' protective features, but the notion of one being non-serviceable IF tripped does raise at least a 'yellow' flag for me. Should it, or is that a baseless yellow flag?

I note that the BattleBorn does not mention non-serviceable internal protective devices, apparently relying on its multiple 'auto-resetting' BMS limits (which includes a 'trip' when discharge >400A for 0.5-seconds). BattleBorn states that all of its various BMS protective cutoffs will reset 5-seconds after the fault/exceedance is cleared. BattleBorn does recommend the use of an external fuse, and I am planning on a Type-T (very fast-blow) fuse for that purpose, but that will be rated to 'clamp' the peak discharge of the battery bank (400A for 2xBB10012).
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Old 04-05-2021, 05:37 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex View Post
I share your intrigue and that's caused me to explore the BestGo/ECPC 400Ah option a bit over the weekend (thanks to 'the other Dave' for forwarding your BestGo correspondence ). I'd previously determined that 2xBattleBorn BB10012 (paralleled for a nominal battery bank rating of 200Ah and a 30-second discharge rating of 400Amps) will meet my peak-current demands, but twice the Ah rating for longer 'carry' at a competitive price is seductive.

One thing that caught my eye and I would welcome comment about: The BestGo literature makes reference to an internal 250Amp "slow-blow" fuse as one if its protective devices. That's comfortably above the battery's continuous discharge rating (150A) and 30-minute discharge rating (200A), though below the 15-second and 0.5 second discharge ratings of 400A and 650A respectively.

When would one expect that internal (non-owner serviceable) 250A fuse to come into play? Should one have any concern that there's a non-owner serviceable fuse in the battery (as opposed to all auto-resetting internal protective features)? It's my understanding that when a "slow-blow" fuse is subjected to very short-duration current slightly above its limit it will 'erode' and effectively reduce the duration it will carry upon another 'borderline' exceedance (it becomes a 'quicker-blow' fuse?).

We all hope that we don't screw-up and 'trip' protective features, but the notion of one being non-serviceable IF tripped does raise at least a 'yellow' flag for me. Should it, or is that a baseless yellow flag?

I note that the BattleBorn does not mention non-serviceable internal protective devices, apparently relying on its multiple 'auto-resetting' BMS limits (which includes a 'trip' when discharge >400A for 0.5-seconds). BattleBorn states that all of its various BMS protective cutoffs will reset 5-seconds after the fault/exceedance is cleared. BattleBorn does recommend the use of an external fuse, and I am planning on a Type-T (very fast-blow) fuse for that purpose, but that will be rated to 'clamp' the peak discharge of the battery bank (400A for 2xBB10012).
One possible solution might be to add your own, easily replaceable, quick-blow 250A fuse inline, to save the slow-blow fuse from being eroded. Without adding the extra fuse, the setup would make me nervous.
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Old 04-05-2021, 07:03 PM   #51
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Quote:
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... At any rate, it sounds to me like you are much more comfortable with the Battleborn and I think that's great. It really is a judgement call we each make four ourselves. ...
I'd sure like to get comfortable with the BestGo given the apparent economic, Ah capacity, size, and weight advantages. I'm genuinely trying!

I know I'm far from expert regarding lithium batteries, so I may well suffer misconceptions or irrelevant concerns that preclude making a prudent decision. Thus requests for input from the many very knowledgeable folks here, and yes, you're correct, I should write to Tony at BestGo, too.

I do very much appreciate all the experience, tips, and opinions you've shared in our email discussions!
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Old 04-05-2021, 07:31 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg A View Post
The pic is final wiring of the Xfer switch with the WFCO orange on top lugs, darker orange EMS/shore power to middle lugs, and yellow to plug for inverter bottom lugs. Interesting note, GoPower support told me middle lugs are dominant, so even if the inverter is on and you plug into shore power it will switch over to the dominant position. (Shore Power)
Greg: Thanks for providing detail on this. Considering that you needed to talk to tech support and the one video I watched the guy hooked it up wrong I figured I’d label it so I don’t get it wrong! Their schematics are a bit confusing because it assumes you are hooking up a generator on one feed and shore power on the other with a priority on generator. We need to hook up shore power to the “generator” terminals to get a proper priority and the inverter on the “power cord” feed.
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Old 04-05-2021, 08:23 PM   #53
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Dave, yes the schematics get a bit confusing. Not to mention that the manual and the inside cover showed different connections, thus called support. He was confused by the different diagrams as well, but confirmed exactly how you have it labeled which is how I wired mine. I haven’t tested yet, so you might want to wait to see if I smoke anything.

If I recall, the manual downloaded from online had the correct schematic that matches ur labels. Again, he also said the shore power/gen lugs in the center were dominant. Don’t know that I’ll leave the inverter on and ever test his info.
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Old 04-06-2021, 11:58 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
Hoping to get some feedback. I put together a wiring diagram using the schematic from tdf-texas as a base and reconfiguring as required. Need this to help visualize what I'm going to do.

Some things you will notice:
-Rewiring the converter/charger to be powered off the shore power side of the transfer switch which allows the main distribution panel to be powered by the inverter. Selective powering of microwave, outlets, mini-split A/C possible without the need for a sub-panel. (Thanks to Greg A for the idea)
-The Victron BMV-712 battery monitor N.O. output will be used to drive a contactor to shut down power to the inverter once the battery reaches a pre-programmed level. In my case 11.2-12V which is the preferred low point for lithium (2.8 -3V per cell). Not interested in letting the battery ever get down to the internal BMS cut-off of 10V which is 2.5V per cell. (Thanks to Semievolved for the idea)
-Victron Orion Smart 18A DC-DC charger will be installed to regulate proper tow vehicle charge. If charge is not needed while towing it can be isolated with the battery disconnect switch.

Any comments would be appreciated.
Any comments from the electrical gurus? The only thing I don't like about this design is that the converter will stay live if the 30A main is turned off. That is not intuitive for anyone working on the trailer in the future. Typically you would expect that all 120V devices would be off when the main is off. I guess it is ok if I label it appropriately and provide a means to shut the converter off with its own breaker.
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Old 04-06-2021, 12:41 PM   #55
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I guess my thought on that Dave, is I'd never use the main breaker to shut off AC to work on the trailer, and actually never even had thought of turning off the main breaker on any trailer. I just unplug shore power, seems to be a more certain a cutoff in my brain than a breaker.
I may be "bass ackwards" on that but have always done that on the trailers. I'd be nervous that there were hot AC lines coming into the trailer ahead of the main breaker if I didn't uplug it.
I remember on my first trailer an old salt caught me disconnecting the AC power from the trailer first. He lectured me that I was standing there holding a live cable and sometimes there's puddles from the water line. He told me to always unhook from the pedestal first so not a live line when unhooking the trailer. I'm slow sometimes, but never have done it "bass ackwards" again.
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Old 04-06-2021, 01:09 PM   #56
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I guess my thought on that Dave, is I'd never use the main breaker to shut off AC to work on the trailer, and actually never even had thought of turning off the main breaker on any trailer. I just unplug shore power, seems to be a more certain a cutoff in my brain than a breaker.
I may be "bass ackwards" on that but have always done that on the trailers. I'd be nervous that there were hot AC lines coming into the trailer ahead of the main breaker if I didn't uplug it.
Good point Greg. Of course a trailer can be easily unplugged from the power source.
I will still make a label at the WFCO breaker panel and near the converter assembly itself.
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Old 04-06-2021, 01:15 PM   #57
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I guess my thought on that Dave, is I'd never use the main breaker to shut off AC to work on the trailer, and actually never even had thought of turning off the main breaker on any trailer. I just unplug shore power, seems to be a more certain a cutoff in my brain than a breaker.
I may be "bass ackwards" on that but have always done that on the trailers. I'd be nervous that there were hot AC lines coming into the trailer ahead of the main breaker if I didn't uplug it.
Sure, but when that shore power cord is not the only power source, turning off the main breaker (if it is truly wired as a main breaker) kills the power to all branch circuits; if there is an inverter, some or all of them could still be live if only the shore power is unplugged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg A View Post
I remember on my first trailer an old salt caught me disconnecting the AC power from the trailer first. He lectured me that I was standing there holding a live cable and sometimes there's puddles from the water line. He told me to always unhook from the pedestal first so not a live line when unhooking the trailer. I'm slow sometimes, but never have done it "bass ackwards" again.
I assume that this refers to the two ends of a detachable power cord, and it doesn't make sense to me. Yes, if you unplug the cord from the trailer first, you're holding a live cord with a female connector on the end, just like any other extension cord plugged into a receptacle, and just like every other receptacle. There are no exposed contacts on the trailer's power cord, so there's no problem... assuming your cord is not some sort of beat-up junk with cuts and exposed wires.

I would unplug at the pedestal first only to reduce the chance that I leave the cord on the ground and forget to put it away before leaving.
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Old 04-06-2021, 01:25 PM   #58
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Question

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Sure, but when that shore power cord is not the only power source, turning off the main breaker (if it is truly wired as a main breaker) kills the power to all branch circuits; if there is an inverter, some or all of them could still be live if only the shore power is unplugged.
Isn't it the case that when a trailer has the inverter (with or without transfer switch) as installed by ETI that turning off the 'main breaker' does not turn off the inverter? IOW one must turn off the 'main breaker' and separately verify the inverter is "Off" to ensure all circuits are 'dead', just as when one pulls the shore power cord on a trailer so equipped? I'm basing that (perhaps incorrect?) understanding on review of the wonderful schematics of ETI setups posted by tdf-texas.

The only 'downside', if it is one, that I see in Dave & Greg's arrangement, is the diligence required to selectively manage loads, but both have stated they recognize and accept that requirement. I'm a bit more comfortable with the 'protection against my own oversight' provided by having a separate AC Dist panel for loads that I know I never want to be routed through the inverter (such as the 110VAC mode of water heater operation). But that's just me knowing I'm subject to human failings. Their arrangement just suggests to me that a bit more care (e.g. make darned sure the inverter is off or the loads are properly set for inverter operation) may be in order at times, for example when 'breaking camp' from a shore-powered site.
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Old 04-06-2021, 01:31 PM   #59
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If you are wired to a sub-panel as ETI does it that would be what I would think as well, Alan. But I'm not totally familiar with ETI's install of the inverter.
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Old 04-06-2021, 02:05 PM   #60
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BTW Greg A, rubicon Dave, and semievolved Dave ... my appreciation is growing for your notion of using the BMV-712 to trigger a conservative (well-over 10V) LVCO for the purpose of ensuring plenty of battery reserve.

Do any of y'all have a particular make/model of 200A contactor in mind that you 'like' for that application?
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