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Old 04-09-2021, 01:17 PM   #81
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Thank You Jon, all makes sense
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:19 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by MVA View Post
General question on solar controller, DC-DC controller, and power center (WFCO or PD) functionality.

Assuming that most of you wire your systems so that all three of these charging circuits are in parallel to the battery, what is the functionality of these controllers when more that one in in operation?
None of the charging sources in a typical RV are either wired to properly charge the battery, nor communicating with anything else... but it still works.

When they measure current, the various chargers only measure what they are producing themselves, which does not equal the actual battery current if there is any load operating or any other charger operating; they should all use one measurement of net battery current (the way a typical monitor does), but they don't. None of them knows the net charging current, and they don't communicate so they can't coordinate. As a result, the total net battery charging current with multiple charging sources could be higher than intended, and usually with one charging source it is lower than intended because some of the current is running equipment in the trailer.

When they measure voltage, they only measure it at their own output terminals, which does not equal the actual battery terminal voltage due to voltage drops caused by current flowing through wire resistance; they should all use one measurement of voltage at the battery, but they don't. None of them knows the actual battery voltage, none can compensate that for internal battery resistance because they don't know the battery current, and they don't communicate so they can't coordinate. As a result, the net battery charging voltage especially with multiple charging sources could be different from what is intended, and the greater the charging rate the greater the error.

Despite this general atmosphere of random incompetence, multiple simultaneous battery charging sources work acceptably because the most important factors are to keep the voltage from getting too low or too high: all charging sources will try to keep it from getting too low and their voltages don't add together so having more than one charging source running at a time doesn't cause the voltage to be any higher than that produced by the most aggressive charging source.
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Old 04-10-2021, 07:10 PM   #83
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Having our 5.0 setup for solar & 2 Lithium batteries but need to negotiate a way to opt out of the Escape provided GoPower Li batteries. I want the Battleborn Li batteries with the built-in heat protection.
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Old 04-11-2021, 12:22 AM   #84
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Just a huge number of great tips, inspirational ideas, and info-sharing posts in this thread, so thanks to everyone for your contributions

I've significantly revised my upgrades plan based on much of this, I would very much appreciate critique to further improve ...
(the PDF may lend to clearer enlargement than the png)
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Old 04-11-2021, 08:56 AM   #85
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Been out in the boonies and just noticed all the activity here, what a great thread!

In the discussion of using a Victron 712 to trigger an intermediate small relay which in turn triggers a large-current contactor, there is confusion about NO normal open vs NC normal closed. I know because I went through the same mind-bending confusion before I ordered mine. NO I believe means that the relay is open, not allowing the circuit to operate UNLESS a signal is applied to it. I want a system that if all power fails, such as when a battery is at the low voltage, the contactor FAILS open, such that no more power can drain from the battery.If a person used a NC contactor, power is required to open the contactor to cut off the circuit. In such a case, power would continue to drain from the battery just to keep the contactor engaged.

If someone has a different understanding of NO vs NC, I'd like to hear it. At any rate, I use two NO contactors on my residential system, one as a high V cutoff on the charge controller and one as a low V cutoff between the battery and the inverters and it works correctly. I wish they would describe them as energized open or energized closed, to me that would be clearer.

Off topic a bit, just got back from 5 days in Utah and used the Bestgo to run an ARB compressor frig/freezer. The temp was set at 15 degrees and the frozen stuff was rock solid throughout. Temps were cool at night but over 80 in the day and the Bestgo went from 80% to 63% SOC with no recharging during that time. Pretty cool (pun intented)!
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Old 04-11-2021, 01:14 PM   #86
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Just a huge number of great tips, inspirational ideas, and info-sharing posts in this thread, so thanks to everyone for your contributions

I've significantly revised my upgrades plan based on much of this, I would very much appreciate critique to further improve ...
(the PDF may lend to clearer enlargement than the png)
Alan: I think you’ve got this dialed in pretty nicely now. The change to the Bestgo battery will give you more amp-hours at a decent price point. Semievolved’s performance sounds impressive. Also glad to see you eliminated the multi-position switch. Personally I thought it was a bit too complicated for what you gained.

I’m still going back and forth on separate inverter/charger/transfer switch versus all-in-one unit like yours. Can you run through the advantages you see relative to separate components? I can see it taking up less space but I will definitely need a sub panel. I’ll admit I’m worried that if something goes wrong with the unit it will be more complicated to “bypass” and get full system functionality back. Also I can’t see how the AIMS remote will take an input directly from the Victron BMV-712 to shut down the inverter. How are accomplishing this?
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Old 04-11-2021, 03:29 PM   #87
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Thank you, Dave.
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
... I’m still going back and forth on separate inverter/charger/transfer switch versus all-in-one unit like yours. Can you run through the advantages you see relative to separate components? I can see it taking up less space but I will definitely need a sub panel. I’ll admit I’m worried that if something goes wrong with the unit it will be more complicated to “bypass” and get full system functionality back.
I think you've pretty much covered it. To my eye the sole 'con' is the risk that failure of any part of the unit will render the whole thing effectively non-functional, and that's not an insignificant 'con'! The 'pros' are the compact packaging and the efficiencies that provides for my 'utility bay' arrangement, both component placement and wire/cable routing and lengths. All I can say is that after much consideration, review-sifting, and discussions with AIMS I'm willing to 'roll the dice' and put my faith in the robust-ness of their unit .... just as I'm likely to do with Bestgo.

In your case, IF you were to go the all-in-one route that would obviously negate the need for the (WildKat upgraded) WFCO converter with its built-in AC&DC distribution panels, so yeah, that'd likely drive re-thinking of the distribution panel setup. Not sure if that's a route that's attractive for you at all in the weighing of your pros and cons?
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... Also I can’t see how the AIMS remote will take an input directly from the Victron BMV-712 to shut down the inverter. How are accomplishing this?
This involves a 'blatantly unauthorized and warranty-voiding hack' of the AIMS REMOTELF, you are correct that it has no designed provision for this.

I had a forthright discussion with AIMS about this idea: using the 712 relay to 'open/close' the appropriate side of the internal lead(s) to the mechanical inverter On/Off switch, resulting in an Off condition over-riding the physical switch position. While AIMS wasn't willing to share the schematic for the remote (not unexpected), and they reinforced that any such hack would void the remote warranty (fully understood and expected), the overall sense I got from the discussion was that this could work. Though understandably 'guarded' the tech person I spoke with was 'intrigued by the idea' and did entertain the discussion rather than dismissing it out-of-hand.

Important to note that I'm not talking about introducing any current to the AIMS remote, only using the 712 relay to open/close a circuit within the AIMS remote in the same manner that its physical switch (apparently) does. Also important to note that the 'hack' of the remote has virtually no chance of jeopardizing the expensive all-in-one unit itself or jeopardizing its warranty (I've no intention of 'hacking' the main unit itself). We'll see what it all looks like when I get the remote, open it up, see what some careful circuit testing reveals, and go from there ... I have the luxury of setting up this entire system on a test-bench to iron-out the kinks and possibilities well in advance of getting my trailer.

(I must add that in my several telephone discussions and email exchanges with AIMS tech folks about this and other aspects of how the unit works they've demonstrated to me that they have a very detailed understanding of their products, forthrightly admit their limitations, and are very supportive of their customers)
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Old 04-11-2021, 03:56 PM   #88
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I looked hard at going with the all in one unit and it definitely saved $$$ over buying the different components. I got too nervous that if any of the functions failed then you've got a paperweight at that point or a long time getting warranty repair/service.
Remembered when the computer companies started offering computers all contained in a monitor. However, the monitor is one of the weakest parts of the system and there are a lot of those systems now that have a monitor hooked up to the all in one because the monitor portion of it died.
Ultimately, felt more comfortable for me going with the individual components. If as Alan says you're comfortable rolling the dice, then it certainly could be a more space efficient route.
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Old 04-11-2021, 06:02 PM   #89
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.... Just one question: why such a heavy conductor on the ground terminal? The drawing shows 4/0 gauge.
Well, among the things clearly presented (thank you) are things I failed to catch in the revision process

Fixing that (2/0 AWG), adding the "2/0" to the -BUS chassis ground cable label, and eliminating the now unnecessary 4-fuse AMI block at the +BUS (the single 30A fuse holder and all breakers now shown wired directly to the +BUS) are among the 04-11-2021 revisions.

Thank You for looking and catching that!
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Old 04-12-2021, 01:09 PM   #90
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Thank you, Dave.
I think you've pretty much covered it. To my eye the sole 'con' is the risk that failure of any part of the unit will render the whole thing effectively non-functional, and that's not an insignificant 'con'! The 'pros' are the compact packaging and the efficiencies that provides for my 'utility bay' arrangement, both component placement and wire/cable routing and lengths. All I can say is that after much consideration, review-sifting, and discussions with AIMS I'm willing to 'roll the dice' and put my faith in the robust-ness of their unit .... just as I'm likely to do with Bestgo.

In your case, IF you were to go the all-in-one route that would obviously negate the need for the (WildKat upgraded) WFCO converter with its built-in AC&DC distribution panels, so yeah, that'd likely drive re-thinking of the distribution panel setup. Not sure if that's a route that's attractive for you at all in the weighing of your pros and cons?
Alan: Thanks for the info. I'm still undecided but my current research has led me to the Xantrex Freedom XC inverter/charger with 30A transfer switch. Have you seen this unit? Quite impressive.
https://www.xantrex.com/power-produc...reedom-xc.aspx

The advantages I see are a configurable low voltage battery cut-off (LBCO) from 10-12.8V in 0.1V increments. Customizable charging voltage from 12-18V and charging current from 5-80A in 5A increments. Since it is an 80A charger and I will be occasionally recharging from a Honda EU2000i generator while also serving other loads this would be important for me to be able to adjust. Not sure if the AIMS unit you are considering has any or all of these features.

This design would require me to abandon my existing PD WildKat converter/charger and I will need to provide a sub panel (for all outlets and mini-split AC) but I can eliminate a separate transfer switch and the external relay/contactor to shut down the inverter on low voltage. I would still use the existing WFCO 120VAC section and 12VDC distribution panel. All things considered it might be a cleaner, more flexible set up. I have to think a little bit more about the wiring.
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Old 04-12-2021, 02:47 PM   #91
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Dave: Thanks for that tip! The Xantrex Freedom XC does indeed appear to offer some advantages over the AIMS, I'll continue to study the documentation but it's looking like a shift in my procurement plan may be in order.

Gotchya on retaining the WFCO distribution panels for your application (with an added subpanel). Personally I like that better than the previous plan without the subpanel.
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Old 04-12-2021, 04:17 PM   #92
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Dave: Thanks for that tip! The Xantrex Freedom XC does indeed appear to offer some advantages over the AIMS, I'll continue to study the documentation but it's looking like a shift in my procurement plan may be in order.
Alan: One thing I found related to the specs is the difference in weight which made me curious. The Xantrex XC 2000 weighs only 16.3# while the Xantrex SW 2000 weighs 60.5#. An equivalent Magnum MS series 2000W weighs 42#, while your AIMS PICOGLF20W12V120V unit is 41#. That's a pretty big spread. I think I found the reason why...it's the amount of iron in the transformers and the speed of switching of the transistors to make AC power.
https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/kn...equency-vs-low

Now if I could just determine if a high frequency inverter is adequate for my use. I think it may be because I'm not running power tools and the mini-split has an inherent soft start with the inverter compressor. On the other hand I would rather have a cooler running inverter with a variable speed fan to keep noise to a minimum.
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Old 04-16-2021, 09:32 PM   #93
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Well with ideas from Alan (Centex) and help from AM Solar I have landed on my final configuration which was in large part due to the flexibility of the Xantrex Freedom XC 2000W inverter/charger. I will have a configurable low voltage battery cut-off (LBCO) from 10-12.8V in 0.1V increment to safeguard the lithium battery. Also customizable charging voltage from 12-18V and charging current from 5-80A in 5A increments. When on shore power the unit will pass power through to loads on the sub panel as well as charge the battery.

I will abandon my existing PD WildKat converter/charger in place and provide a sub panel (for all outlets/microwave/mini-split AC). On the upside I can eliminate a separate transfer switch and the external relay/contactor to shut down the inverter on low voltage. I am still utilizing the existing WFCO 120VAC section and 12VDC distribution panel. Parts are on the way. Excited to get this wired up and functional. You can save a bit by searching out individual components but AM Solar has the Freedom XC packaged with all required parts (their "RV Upgrade Kit") for a complete install at a pretty competitive price.
https://amsolar.com/rv-inverters-chargers/inv-x-2000fx

Install will also include Victron BMV-712 Smart battery monitor and Victron Orion 12/12-18 Isolated DC-DC charger on tow vehicle charge line. AM Solar has these too but they are separate purchases. I bought them elsewhere.

If I ever have a problem with the all-in-one inverter/charger unit I realized that I can simply pull the two 120V AC wires out of the Freedom XC and splice them in a junction box and reconnect the original PD Wildkat converter/charger to the AC breaker in the main panel and the trailer would be fully functional with only the loss of inverter capabilities.
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Old 04-16-2021, 10:25 PM   #94
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Well with ideas from Alan (Centex) and help from AM Solar I have landed on my final configuration which was in large part due to the flexibility of the Xantrex Freedom XC 2000W inverter/charger. I will have a configurable low voltage battery cut-off (LBCO) from 10-12.8V in 0.1V increment to safeguard the lithium battery. Also customizable charging voltage from 12-18V and charging current from 5-80A in 5A increments. When on shore power the unit will pass power through to loads on the sub panel as well as charge the battery.

I will abandon my existing PD WildKat converter/charger in place and provide a sub panel (for all outlets/microwave/mini-split AC). On the upside I can eliminate a separate transfer switch and the external relay/contactor to shut down the inverter on low voltage. I am still utilizing the existing WFCO 120VAC section and 12VDC distribution panel. Parts are on the way. Excited to get this wired up and functional. You can save a bit by searching out individual components but AM Solar has the Freedom XC packaged with all required parts (their "RV Upgrade Kit") for a complete install at a pretty competitive price.
https://amsolar.com/rv-inverters-chargers/inv-x-2000fx

Install will also include Victron BMV-712 Smart battery monitor and Victron Orion 12/12-18 Isolated DC-DC charger on tow vehicle charge line. AM Solar has these too but they are separate purchases. I bought them elsewhere.

If I ever have a problem with the all-in-one inverter/charger unit I realized that I can simply pull the two 120V AC wires out of the Freedom XC and splice them in a junction box and reconnect the original PD Wildkat converter/charger to the AC breaker in the main panel and the trailer would be fully functional with only the loss of inverter capabilities.
A few nit questions that you probably have considered. Sorry at the last minute.
(1) The 60A fuse seems low. I am working on less complex schematic for a solar/Li battery upgrade and I have sized this fuse to 70A. The 6 awg will carrying 70A.
(2) There is no fusing on the emergency brake switch. The "as built" Escape also does not have fusing on this line. My concern is if the emergency switch fails closed (in travel or parking), the current draw could exceed the 10 awg load wire capability thus making that wire the fuse. I am currently "considering" adding a 15A fuse on this line. Thoughts on fusing and size?
(3) Not sure what BestGo recommends for main fusing. I plan to use a Battleborn 100Ahr battery and Battleborn recommends an ANL fuse. Hence I am adding a 100A main fuse. Escape is also planning to install a main battery fuse (not sure what type or size).
(4) The stock Escape disconnect switch is only rated for 50A.

2 cents
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Old 04-17-2021, 01:13 AM   #95
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A few nit questions that you probably have considered. Sorry at the last minute.
(1) The 60A fuse seems low. I am working on less complex schematic for a solar/Li battery upgrade and I have sized this fuse to 70A. The 6 awg will carrying 70A.
(2) There is no fusing on the emergency brake switch. The "as built" Escape also does not have fusing on this line. My concern is if the emergency switch fails closed (in travel or parking), the current draw could exceed the 10 awg load wire capability thus making that wire the fuse. I am currently "considering" adding a 15A fuse on this line. Thoughts on fusing and size?
(3) Not sure what BestGo recommends for main fusing. I plan to use a Battleborn 100Ahr battery and Battleborn recommends an ANL fuse. Hence I am adding a 100A main fuse. Escape is also planning to install a main battery fuse (not sure what type or size).
(4) The stock Escape disconnect switch is only rated for 50A.

2 cents
I appreciate the comments. Here are my answers.
#1: The only items on that 60A fused circuit are the DC fuse panel, breakaway switch and 18A DC-DC charger. Since the fuse is there to protect the wire a smaller fuse than actual wire capacity should be just fine. If it’s not obvious the new 80A charger incorporated into the Freedom XC charges the battery via the 4/0 wires.
#2: No clear consensus but most mfrs seem to leave the breakaway switch unfused. Technically it should be on the battery side of my 60A fuse but I think the risk of blowing that fuse is pretty low unless there is a short. Each brake magnet is 3A for total of 12A on a dual axle. If I were to add a fuse I’d probably go to a 20A to have some more headroom over the standard amp draw of the brakes.
#3: The Bestgo battery has a 250A internal fuse. I’m not sure of the best approach with Battleborn but the BMS has short-circuit protection. Also I did come across this article that suggests they do not recommend ANL fuses. Remember you don’t fuse for the max output of the battery. You fuse for the wire size and anticipated load.
https://battlebornbatteries.com/why-...r-your-system/
#4: My battery disconnect switch was upgraded to this one from Powerwerx with 100A rating.
https://powerwerx.com/panelhdsw-heavy-duty-switch

I’m not an electrical engineer. Please push back on anything above you feel is debatable!
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Old 04-17-2021, 09:33 AM   #96
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I appreciate the comments. Here are my answers.
#1: The only items on that 60A fused circuit are the DC fuse panel, breakaway switch and 18A DC-DC charger. Since the fuse is there to protect the wire a smaller fuse than actual wire capacity should be just fine. If it’s not obvious the new 80A charger incorporated into the Freedom XC charges the battery via the 4/0 wires.
#2: No clear consensus but most mfrs seem to leave the breakaway switch unfused. Technically it should be on the battery side of my 60A fuse but I think the risk of blowing that fuse is pretty low unless there is a short. Each brake magnet is 3A for total of 12A on a dual axle. If I were to add a fuse I’d probably go to a 20A to have some more headroom over the standard amp draw of the brakes.
#3: The Bestgo battery has a 250A internal fuse. I’m not sure of the best approach with Battleborn but the BMS has short-circuit protection. Also I did come across this article that suggests they do not recommend ANL fuses. Remember you don’t fuse for the max output of the battery. You fuse for the wire size and anticipated load.
https://battlebornbatteries.com/why-...r-your-system/
#4: My battery disconnect switch was upgraded to this one from Powerwerx with 100A rating.
https://powerwerx.com/panelhdsw-heavy-duty-switch

I’m not an electrical engineer. Please push back on anything above you feel is debatable!
Thanks for the reply. Not a EE either; just a chemical engineer.
#1. Read but did not internalize that you are not using the power center for battery charging function. 60A fuse makes sense. I sized a 70A for my system to be 125% of max power output (55A) and sized wiring based on that fuse size.
#2 Agreed on the fusing size, if a fuse is used. Failure mode of concern is shorting to ground of emergency brake switch. Not sure if I will add a fuse or not.
#3 Battleborn is inconsistent on their literature. The installation manual says to use an ANL fuse as a main fuse, but their faq page states that some customers have had heat buildup on ANL fuses. a bit confusing. The fuse they are selling appears to be a sand filled fuse. From their webpage not clear if customers were complaining of heat buildup are using high amperage ANL fuses (>300A) since Battleborn sells 300A and higher rated fuses. I may call them Monday to see if I can clarify. What type of fuse is your 60A?
#4. Thanks for the link. Not sure why ETI used a 50A rated switch. I am also planning to replace mine.

--Steve
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Old 04-17-2021, 08:07 PM   #97
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What type of fuse is your 60A?
60A Maxi-fuse in a Bussmann holder

https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-HHX-.../dp/B000CZ2Z92
https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-MAX6...omotive&sr=1-3
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Old 04-18-2021, 08:11 AM   #98
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#1. Read but did not internalize that you are not using the power center for battery charging function. 60A fuse makes sense. I sized a 70A for my system to be 125% of max power output (55A) and sized wiring based on that fuse size.
FWIW Escape had a 30A auto-resetting fuse on our main 12V circuit. Not sure if it was the WFCO never putting out its maximum but we never had a problem. Or for all I know it could have been tripping occasionally when charging and since the converter is on the other side of the system we’d never have known because it would reset.

That is gone now as part of my Phase I wiring upgrades.
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Old 04-22-2021, 02:33 PM   #99
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Just FYI buying experience for those interested in the Freedom XC 2000 (converter/inverter/30A transfer switch 'all-in-one') mentioned by 'rubicon Dave' in this thread.

I placed an online order after close of business last Friday for the Freedom XC 2000 and companion BT remote (the version with network cable) from this authorized USA xantrex vendor with very competitive pricing, 'free' shipping, no sales tax for me in TX:
https://www.boemarine.com/xantrex-fr...2000w-80a.html
https://www.boemarine.com/xantrex-fr...ork-cable.html

The package was in UPS' hands the following business day (Monday), I received it today (Thursday). No affiliation or past dealings with BOE Marine but for me it was a good transaction.

There are certainly other vendors (e.g. Amazon, InvertersRUs.com, etc); AM Solar offers bundles with installation accessories that may be of interest to some (note the 'base' item from AMS does not include the remote panel); just sharing this positive experience for those who might be interested. YMMV.
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Old 04-22-2021, 09:29 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex View Post
Just FYI buying experience for those interested in the Freedom XC 2000 (converter/inverter/30A transfer switch 'all-in-one') mentioned by 'rubicon Dave' in this thread.

I placed an online order after close of business last Friday for the Freedom XC 2000 and companion BT remote (the version with network cable) from this authorized USA xantrex vendor with very competitive pricing, 'free' shipping, no sales tax for me in TX:
https://www.boemarine.com/xantrex-fr...2000w-80a.html
https://www.boemarine.com/xantrex-fr...ork-cable.html

The package was in UPS' hands the following business day (Monday), I received it today (Thursday). No affiliation or past dealings with BOE Marine but for me it was a good transaction.

There are certainly other vendors (e.g. Amazon, InvertersRUs.com, etc); AM Solar offers bundles with installation accessories that may be of interest to some (note the 'base' item from AMS does not include the remote panel); just sharing this positive experience for those who might be interested. YMMV.
Alan: That certainly is a good price for the Freedom XC. I did pay more for the unit as part of the AM Solar “RV Upgrade Kit” bundle but happy to support them. This also gets me support if I have any questions during the install. Glad you landed on the same Xantrex as your choice of equipment so that we can help each other out if there are issues or programming questions.
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