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04-09-2023, 10:17 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshkaboo
They classify it as a dedicated line.
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Dedicated lines have been around for a very long time. Not only for fridges and microwaves etc. but I also remember the "coffee pot" dedicated circuit for dining rooms. Maybe different jurisdictions have different requirements but these dedicated circuits were for the prevention of overloading a circuit, not for GFCI reasons. Dedicated circuits predate GFCIs by a long way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesinGA
Rewiring the circuits in a trailer will be nearly impossible without destroying the interior of the trailer. It is not worth the effort, just get the best GFCI you can, and locate any problems.
Charles
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I've never seen the interior spaces of a Bigfoot but Escapes have a lot of hidden space and wiring can be run quite easily to other locations.
Ron
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04-09-2023, 10:21 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Trailer: 2022 Escape 21C
Posts: 262
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Hmmm, just took a quick look at the WFCO manual ( https://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-conte...anualCat-4.pdf) , and it looks like there are no "approved" GFCI breakers for the panel:
Code:
The following breakers have been factory tested and approved for use as Branch breakers
in the WF-8900-AD Series Power Center:
Manufacturer Model/Cat. No./Type
============ ===================
Cutler Hammer Type BR and C, Type BRD, BD and A
Thomas Betts Type TB or TBBD
ITE/Siemens Type QP or QT
Square D Type HOM or HOMT
Murray Type MP-T or MH-T
General Electric Type THQL or THQP
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04-10-2023, 01:16 AM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugh
Hmmm, just took a quick look at the WFCO manual ( https://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-conte...anualCat-4.pdf) , and it looks like there are no "approved" GFCI breakers for the panel:
Code:
The following breakers have been factory tested and approved for use as Branch breakers
in the WF-8900-AD Series Power Center:
Manufacturer Model/Cat. No./Type
============ ===================
Cutler Hammer Type BR and C, Type BRD, BD and A
Thomas Betts Type TB or TBBD
ITE/Siemens Type QP or QT
Square D Type HOM or HOMT
Murray Type MP-T or MH-T
General Electric Type THQL or THQP
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Just picking one of those at random, an example of a Square D type "HOM" breaker with GFCI is Square D by Schneider Electric HOM120GFICP Homeline 20 Amp Single-Pole GFCI Circuit Breaker (on Amazon). It's also available as a 15A version.
I'm not endorsing or recommending, just pointing out that among the 'WFCO approved' Model/Cat. No./Types listed you'll likely find GFCI breakers from one or more of the named manufacturers if that's your inclination.
Breaker manufacturer base 'type' designations usually encompass a range of breakers with different electrical specifications / features. The base 'type' designation usually only indicates compatibility with the stab-bar spacing and other physical configuration requirements of the breaker box.
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04-10-2023, 07:27 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Trailer: 2022 Escape 21C
Posts: 262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
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Ah, good catch! I missed the Square "HOM" breakers having a GFCI version. Many of the other ones have different type designations for the GFCI variants.
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04-10-2023, 07:58 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kent, Ohio
Trailer: 2017 21c Sold, 2023 Bigfoot 25RQ
Posts: 1,382
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On my old escape the outside outlet and the kitchen were tied together on one gfci protected circuit.
By the way you can install a gfci on an old two wire circuit and gain the protection. My rental house has these circuits and I changed out some of the circuits with a gfci. My professional electrician recommended this as it meets code.
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04-10-2023, 08:50 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Hazelwood, Missouri
Trailer: 2021 5.0
Posts: 767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldwave
On my old escape the outside outlet and the kitchen were tied together on one gfci protected circuit.
By the way you can install a gfci on an old two wire circuit and gain the protection. My rental house has these circuits and I changed out some of the circuits with a gfci. My professional electrician recommended this as it meets code.
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It only meets code if you put the sticker on it that comes inside the box. It’s states the outlet isn’t grounded.
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04-10-2023, 11:16 AM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,744
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Since arc fault breakers are now required in a lot of rooms, including bedrooms, I wonder if mobile home builders are installing them. And by extension, since an Escape is one big bedroom, if they'll ever start to install them in RVs.
Ron
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04-10-2023, 12:04 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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I always thought the kitchen, being close to water was a protected outlet....
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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04-10-2023, 01:14 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron in BC
Since arc fault breakers are now required in a lot of rooms, including bedrooms, I wonder if mobile home builders are installing them. And by extension, since an Escape is one big bedroom, if they'll ever start to install them in RVs.
Ron
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I'm guessing it's just a matter of time as the trend becomes more common in the 'breaker industry'.
FWIW I've installed Eaton Type BR 15-Amp 1-Pole Dual Function AFCI/GFCI Circuit Breaker or the 20A counterpart for all branch circuits as part of my 5.0 electrical mods (those in a Progressive Dynamics PD55K003 panel which specifically lists Eaton BR type as one approved for the panel) and eliminated all GFCI receptacles. That's both 'shore power only' and 'inverter power or pass-through' circuits.
So far those have not exhibited any 'nuisance tripping' with any equipment I've plugged or hard-wired into those circuits.
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04-10-2023, 02:03 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kent, Ohio
Trailer: 2017 21c Sold, 2023 Bigfoot 25RQ
Posts: 1,382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
I'm guessing it's just a matter of time as the trend becomes more common in the 'breaker industry'.
FWIW I've installed Eaton Type BR 15-Amp 1-Pole Dual Function AFCI/GFCI Circuit Breaker or the 20A counterpart for all branch circuits as part of my 5.0 electrical mods (those in a Progressive Dynamics PD55K003 panel which specifically lists Eaton BR type as one approved for the panel) and eliminated all GFCI receptacles. That's both 'shore power only' and 'inverter power or pass-through' circuits.
So far those have not exhibited any 'nuisance tripping' with any equipment I've plugged or hard-wired into those circuits.
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I've used them at home, though I must say those little buggers are expensive
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04-10-2023, 04:45 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
I'm guessing it's just a matter of time as the trend becomes more common in the 'breaker industry'.
So far those have not exhibited any 'nuisance tripping' with any equipment I've plugged or hard-wired into those circuits.
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Good link and information.
Actually I can see that the arc fault breaker could be useful in a trailer situation given that a lot of folks plug in portable heaters. Worn plugs or frayed wires could trip it which wouldn't be a bad thing.
Ron
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04-10-2023, 08:43 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oswego, New York
Trailer: 2017 Escape 21C, 2018 Ford F150
Posts: 5,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron in BC
Good link and information.
Actually I can see that the arc fault breaker could be useful in a trailer situation given that a lot of folks plug in portable heaters. Worn plugs or frayed wires could trip it which wouldn't be a bad thing.
Ron
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One problem with both the GFCI & arc fault breakers - they don't make them as 1/2 breakers, so if you are adding them you will severely limit the number of branch circuits available in the converter power center.
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04-11-2023, 01:21 AM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Trailer: 2022 Escape 21C
Posts: 262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermilye
One problem with both the GFCI & arc fault breakers - they don't make them as 1/2 breakers, so if you are adding them you will severely limit the number of branch circuits available in the converter power center.
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Yep, but as the entire electrical panel for an Escape is only 30 amps, one option would be to replace the main 30 amp breaker with a GFCI version.
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04-11-2023, 08:49 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugh
Yep, but as the entire electrical panel for an Escape is only 30 amps, one option would be to replace the main 30 amp breaker with a GFCI version.
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Note that when a GFCI breaker is installed the neutral wire for that circuit is routed to the breaker (GFCI breakers have lugs for both hot and neutral), thence to the common neutral bus via a jumper wire that is integral with the GFCI breaker.
I believe that a GFCI installed as the 'main breaker' would be considered a GFCI on a 'feeder' circuit (distinct from a 'branch' circuit). A 'feeder' circuit having branches with their own breakers downstream of the 'feeder'.
One would need to verify that would provide the expected GF protection for the downstream branch circuits with 'standard' breakers, each which would have their respective neutral wires routed directly to the common neutral bus.
I do not know for certain but I suspect that would not function as an effective GFCI for the branch circuits.
Even if it does function to effectively provide 'all trailer' GF protection, IMO it could be quite inconvenient if a GF on any branch caused the main to trip, thereby killing power to the entire trailer.
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04-11-2023, 08:59 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Madison area, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2016 Escape 19 Chevy 2012 Express 3500 Van
Posts: 1,734
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It's always interesting to observe the evolution of a post
This one has morphed into a full blown revamping and rerouting of the electrical system.
K.I.S.S.
I'm with post #19 from CharlesinGA
"If the OP is constantly tripping the GFCI, first, replace it where it is located outside, and see what happens. Many times GFCIs get weak and trip for no real reason. If the new one trips, you need to start determining what is causing it to trip, the coffee maker, the hair dryer, electric frying pan, hot plate, what? Something has a short in it and is faulting to ground."
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04-11-2023, 09:06 AM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Trailer: 2017 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 15,532
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You could feed power straight though at the exterior GFI bypassing the protection and then install a separate GFI inside at the galley. These are the only two locations required by code to have them. As others mentioned, dealing with the reason that the GFI is tripping at all is what needs to be done.
With owning an Escape since 2009 I have never had trouble. I have had the GFI trip outside running an extension cord in the rain, but that did what it was supposed to do.
A good GFI outlet designed for residential use should work just fine. I have installed many hundreds in homes over the years never to have had trouble. Of course there could always be that bad apple in the bunch.
I have never had an issue with the GFI wiring, with the exterior plug protecting the galley one
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
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04-11-2023, 06:03 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Trailer: 2022 Escape 21C
Posts: 262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
Note that when a GFCI breaker is installed the neutral wire for that circuit is routed to the breaker (GFCI breakers have lugs for both hot and neutral), thence to the common neutral bus via a jumper wire that is integral with the GFCI breaker.
I believe that a GFCI installed as the 'main breaker' would be considered a GFCI on a 'feeder' circuit (distinct from a 'branch' circuit). A 'feeder' circuit having branches with their own breakers downstream of the 'feeder'.
One would need to verify that would provide the expected GF protection for the downstream branch circuits with 'standard' breakers, each which would have their respective neutral wires routed directly to the common neutral bus.
I do not know for certain but I suspect that would not function as an effective GFCI for the branch circuits.
Even if it does function to effectively provide 'all trailer' GF protection, IMO it could be quite inconvenient if a GF on any branch caused the main to trip, thereby killing power to the entire trailer.
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Yep, you're right, I'm 0 for 2 in this thread! As the power center feed is "backfed" through the main breaker, a GFCI breaker couldn't be substituted.
FWIW though, I did install a single GFCI breaker to protect my entire trailer, but it was external to the power center. I like having it setup that way "just in case" something gets shorted to the frame or other metal component of the trailer. (not likely, I know, but having received a substantial shock from a 120V circuit, which was likely survived due a GFCI breaker, I've come to appreciate the idea of GFCI protection )
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04-14-2023, 08:47 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowa Dave
Due to my public position I could not express my disgust for his behavior and the comments he had made about the quality of our park operation. His comments were not
valid and were inappropriate. Due to the fact that I was a public employee at the time I refrained from engaging him. Then I retired . And I met him at a high school function, where he was the activities director. And let’s just say I left a lasting impression when I expressed my belief in his intelligence level. Yes I lowered myself to his level and below. And I never regretted it for a minute.
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I taught K-12 as a business/computer teacher and was the entire computer department in the school. Some teachers were mad at me because of locked devices or couldn't get what they wanted. Also, many parents couldn't understand why little Johnnie or little Joanie didnt' get an A.
Since we sold our home on May 1, the last month we lived in our Casita at a lake lot two miles from town. Three days after retirement, May 28th, I moved 325 miles to Lanesboro (and Terry lived in a basement apartment for three years 300 miles away till retirement). I knew I had to move when I retired or my mouth would get the best of me. The one parent was married to a deputy sheriff who had a bad reputation and his wife was a huge a$$hole. That wouldn't have gone well.
Enjoy,
Perry
__________________
Those who know everything use pens. Intelligent people use pencils.
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04-14-2023, 09:10 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugh
However, you could skip the GFCI outlet entirely, and install a GFCI circuit breaker in the electrical panel instead. They're more expensive than the outlets, but at least you wouldn't have to go outside to reset it.
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This is my first choice when replacing a GFCI.
Also I don't go to Lowes, Menards, or Home Depot for electrical needs and neither will my electricians (while I had a Minnesota Low-Voltage Electricians License, I had to use electricians on anything over 36 volts), especially when dealing with GFCI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron in BC
I've never seen the interior spaces of a Bigfoot but Escapes have a lot of hidden space and wiring can be run quite easily to other locations.
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While I would have no problem rewiring our Escape, our 2016 Bigfoot is a different matter. The way they wire is my only complaint about our Bigfoot. It's anything but "Neat and Workmanlike." Plus, I hate looms! This May I'll be removing our PD charger and installing a PD 2000 watt inverter and a Victron 30a charger. You should see the wiring mess behind the PD distribution box!
Enjoy,
Perry
__________________
Those who know everything use pens. Intelligent people use pencils.
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04-14-2023, 09:26 AM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Benton County, Iowa
Trailer: 2013 Escape 21 Classic Number 6, pulled by 2018 Toyota Highlander
Posts: 8,235
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Hi Perry
There are some benefits to “getting out of Dodge” after retirement for sure. I like the Lanesboro area and the Root River and Trail. Took the Scouts up there when we did the Bicycle Merit Badge. Also I communicate with some folks who hold the “Rough Fish Roundup” based at the Eagle campground there in Mid May. They fish for Redhorse and Suckers, drink beer, grind the fish up and make “deep fried sucker balls” which they gorge themselves on and drink till they pass out. My kind of people. Nothing like a fresh caught shorthead redhorse out of cold water, scaled gutted and scored deeply and fried in hot oil. Rough fish are looked down on mostly by uninformed people who have never been hungry. I do not like people who catch fish and throw them up on the bank to die. Hope you have a great spring and enjoy your Bigfoot camper. See you a Thomson I hope. Working on musical selections for the dog parade.
Iowa Dave
__________________
Ain’t no trouble jacking a double Burma Shave
Dave
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