Progressive EMS install on a E19

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by CharlesinGA

I think the portable power management units getting stolen is highly over rated. I have never heard of one getting taken and haven't even read in any of the several forums I frequent about one getting away. I'm sure it happens, but its kinda like a lot of things in life, you have to set a level of tolerance.

My father smoked cigarettes all his life and never died of cancer.

Since 2016, our camper(s) have been sitting in the 250 Campground in Lanesboro, .8 mile from our condo. Our second year at least two post mounted EMS were stolen during a busy summer weekend. I know one was cable locked. A year or two later someone stole 30 and 50 amp power cords in the winter. If our 30 amp power cord is stolen we have a 120 amp extension that will work (we don't have a microwave, and never have needed our AC when camping on the road).

In 2019 we were at Death Valley's Furnace Creek Campground when in January, during the day, with a 100% filled campground, someone had their portable solar panel stolen. One neighbor was there all day and never saw it being taken.

If you camp enough, and talk to enough other campers, you'll hear of many items taken.

Only leave outside what you're willing to lose.

Enjoy,

Perry

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by gklott

How did your installation go?

73/gus

Install was easy..........thanks for asking - though my knees don't like me anymore!

Cutting thru orange Romex always gives me pause, no matter how many times I verify

I decided to mount the unit on the DS dinette outside wall header in a vertical orientation under the bench. I added some depth to the dinette header with a 10" length piece of 1x2 to mount to. Still TBD on the monitor location so ignore the blue tape and monitor at bottom right of pic below. I had not secured all the wires back with zip ties at the time of this pic either........

As happens, this project made me aware of how the solar controller and associated wiring (lever locks are nice though) mounting location on top of the black tank was just a waste of real estate / storage space. Believe I will move all of that to a vertical orientation on a noncombustible surface (as Victron calls for) location under the DS dinette along the bathroom wall. Appears I can utilize all the wiring "as is" as well. Will likely reroute the toilet water supply a bit to fall below the electronics. Shocking, I know.............

[7Gentex]

Well, After installing the EMS, I couldn't stand the solar controller and associated wiring taking up the whole floor of the DS dinette on top of the black tank on the new E19, so............

Before, as delivered - pic #1 (except for my EMS install)

Pic #2 & 3 - After moving solar controller and associated wiring to the inboard of the DS dinette bench structure - and mounting the EMS display at the corner of the DS and front (U-shaped) dinette. And yes, I was kinda standing on my head for pic #3!


Instant storage!

The "air space" behind the solar controller heat fins qualifies "non-combustible"......right?

The toilet water line by the solar controller still gives me the heebee-jeevees" though..........

[John in Santa Cruz]

Looks good to me. The solar controller doesn't get that warm

[gklott]

Nicely done. Good to have the storage space. Watch for anything you store there from sliding against the water pipe.

What size fuse do you have between the solar charger and the batteries?

73/gus

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by gklott

Nicely done. Good to have the storage space. Watch for anything you store there from sliding against the water pipe.

What size fuse do you have between the solar charger and the batteries?

73/gus

Still hunting / tracing, but it appears the solar charger battery output (1st pic, red wire coming from right) goes to the thermal fuse on top (30 amp I think, need to verify) then is jumped to the 50 amp (need to verify) thermal below that, where it appears the WFCO charger output joins in, then on to the 80 amp main battery fuse in the front storage box, then jumped to the 200 amp fuse, then to the batteries. Top right off the 200 amp fuse goes to the batts. Appears the bottom off the 200 amp goes to the inverter.

Factory equipped (I did not order / spec this unit - an inventory offering) with a single 190 watt panel with two 100 a/h lithium iron phosphate HubLion batts. 3 way 5cf fridge, so not sure why dual batts were spec'd? Maybe for long furnace run potential while boon-docking, extended inverter use, or maybe for in the future when I get a 12v compressor fridge like yours! Will need more solar for that.......(Very nice fridge BTW)

[brjohnso]

Originally Posted by CharlesinGA

I think the portable power management units getting stolen is highly over rated. I have never heard of one getting taken and haven't even read in any of the several forums I frequent about one getting away. I'm sure it happens, but its kinda like a lot of things in life, you have to set a level of tolerance.

I installed a Progressive HW30 in my motorhome, put the display with the levels and switches panel. I liked seeing the numbers and knowing what was going on electrically. Then I sold the motor home. It didn't make a rats difference to the buyer, so I basically gave it away. Then I realized that if you do have a permanent one installed, you need to make up the short jumpers, and know how to install them should the relay or circuit board fail, and you need to have the tools (an "ought" phillips screwdriver for the cover and tools to install the jumpers across the relay).

I bought a Hughes Watchdog portable because I liked the Bluetooth feature of it but the lit up face was too much, so I opened it up and unplugged the wire to the face lights. Then the Bluetooth would not work and I called Hughes once, never got a call back. Called a couple of months later and the lady I talked to tried to have me do all of the common things I had already tried. Finally she connected me to the tech guy who I wanted to talk to in the first place. It took about 20 seconds for him to say "app permissions" and I discovered they had been changed either thru an update or my mis doings. Now it works.

I talked with Progressive about another issue and asked when they were going to incorporate Bluetooth in their portable units. The answer.... NEVER. The reasons were perfectly logical. Constant tech support issues related to two apps (Android and Apple) and a zillion different phones with varying versions and sub versions of the operating systems and updating of the operating systems necessitating updating of the apps. Its a never ending battle and I understood his reasoning, it made a lot of sense.

Charles

I agree with you, and prefer the Watchdog. It's cheaper and has bluetooth. In general, I didn't buy many of the ETI-installed electrical options because for some reason, they all seemed crazy overpriced. So if it was something I could install later, that's what I did. Solar, inverter, power management, lithium batteries... all can be installed later at lower cost.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

(Very nice fridge BTW)

Thanks. Our Isotherm Cruise 195 INOX is working out well for us. I read that several owners installed this refrigerator and freezer.

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

Still hunting / tracing, but it appears the solar charger battery output (1st pic, red wire coming from right) goes to the thermal fuse on top (30 amp I think, need to verify) then is jumped to the 50 amp (need to verify) thermal below that, where it appears the WFCO charger output joins in, then on to the 80 amp main battery fuse in the front storage box, then jumped to the 200 amp fuse, then to the batteries. Top right off the 200 amp fuse goes to the batts. Appears the bottom off the 200 amp goes to the inverter.

Nice pictures.

If the 80A battery fuse blows, I wonder how you get battery to the trailer brakes if the break away switch gets activated? Trailer batteries supporting break away normally use an automotive Type 1 thermal breaker (auto resettable, and once tripped, will attempt to reset the circuit, or 'cycle', as the internal elements of the breaker cool down.)

As ETI OEM, we had no 80A (or other) fuse between the batteries and the first (50A) breaker. We also had the separate inverter supply off our batteries with a 200A fuse.

73/gus

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by gklott

.....................

If the 80A battery fuse blows, I wonder how you get battery to the trailer brakes if the break away switch gets activated? Trailer batteries supporting break away normally use an automotive Type 1 thermal breaker (auto resettable, and once tripped, will attempt to reset the circuit, or 'cycle', as the internal elements of the breaker cool down.)
...............................

73/gus

Good catch - there are no feeds to anything (besides the shunt) between the batts and the 80, or the 200 amp fuses, so if either blows, no trailer emergency brakes!.............I will address that next.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

thermal fuse on top (30 amp I think, need to verify) then is jumped to the 50 amp (need to verify) thermal below that)

On both our 2019 E19-F1 and our daughter's 2020 E21NE-F1, the top thermal breaker is 30A and bottom thermal breaker is 50A.

73/gus

[DGLP]

Originally Posted by gklott

On both our 2019 E19-F1 and our daughter's 2020 E21NE-F1, the top thermal breaker is 30A and bottom thermal breaker is 50A.

73/gus

The auto-reset thermal circuit breakers in our 21 NE were susceptible to damage.
Shortly after taking delivery of the trailer, I found that the 30 amp breaker had a bent stud. The lock nut on that stud, which was making contact with the ring connector, was loose. I removed it with my fingers. The stud itself has darkened. The soft white cap had begun to melt. Evidence of arcing? One of the ring connectors was too large for a stud. Photos are attached.

Some on this forum have suggested manual reset breakers of this type:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/718...face_Mount_50A

Would any of our electrical experts have any recommendations? I found an opinion from another forum that would support manual reset breakers

https://www.exploroz.com/forum/86534...-reset-breaker

The reason for any protection, fuse or circuit breaker, is to disconnect a circuit where the current is exceeding a safe value and so avoid further damage and possibly fire. The application of an automatically resettable circuit breaker is normally restricted (in industry and domestic applications) to incorporation within appliances where an overload, as distinct from a fault, may occur. This may for example be a portable tool or battery charger. It is not a good idea to use auto-resettable protection with unsupervised loads as the repeated re-application of the supply may cause further damage than the original fault.

I would consider it best to be made aware of a fault by a blown fuse or opened manually-resettable circuit breaker than to have an auto-resettable breaker continue to repeatably apply power until the battery was flat or something worse occurs.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by DGLP

The auto-reset thermal circuit breakers in our 21 NE were susceptible to damage.
Shortly after taking delivery of the trailer, I found that the 30 amp breaker had a bent stud. The lock nut on that stud, which was making contact with the ring connector, was loose. I removed it with my fingers. The stud itself has darkened. The soft white cap had begun to melt. Evidence of arcing? One of the ring connectors was too large for a stud. Photos are attached.
I would consider it best to be made aware of a fault by a blown fuse or opened manually-resettable circuit breaker than to have an auto-resettable breaker continue to repeatably apply power until the battery was flat or something worse occurs.

Excellent photos. I checked our daughter's E21NE, and the nuts were tight. There was no damage. Sounds like a QC issue, and I would send this information directly to Karl and Harrison.

These automotive thermal breakers are called "short stop", and they come in 3 types.

In general, I agree that you want to know when a fuse blows or circuit breaker trips. Overcurrent protection is there to protect the wiring systems, not what's connected to them. Any connected device should have its own overcurrent protection device.

The automotive type 2 and 3 short stop breakers trip and require manual reset, by removing voltage or by a button. Yet you want the breakaway-switch activated brakes to always work, even under the worse circumstances. Design should prevent the situation where the breakaway switch is not energized by the trailer battery.

NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles, §8.4.1.4 (also Canadian CSA Z240) requires the breakaway brake system. NFPA Figure 8.4.1.7 shows the switch connected directly to 'a battery' with no overcurrent protection. However, this seems to be in conflict with the RVIA Low Voltage standard which requires overcurrent protection between your battery and "everything", including the breakaway switch.

That's where an automatically resetting type-1 thermal breaker comes into play. It "tries" to always be on. You should periodically test your breakaway switch to see if the breaker is working.

In our 2004 30 ft Airstream Classic, there are two "always on" circuits prior to the main battery short stop breaker.

• single type-1 thermal breaker to the breakaway switch circuit

• in-line 1A fuse to the 12V CO and propane detector

In our 2019 E19-F1, I isolated the breakaway circuit from the main 50A thermal breaker. I installed a type-1 Maxi-blade breaker connected between the battery + terminal and the switch.

How would you approach providing overcurrent protection in the breakaway switch circuit?

73/gus

[BobG]

Originally Posted by DGLP

I would consider it best to be made aware of a fault by a blown fuse or opened manually-resettable circuit breaker than to have an auto-resettable breaker continue to repeatably apply power until the battery was flat or something worse occurs.

Wiring that serves the emergency breakaway brakes is regulated by an agency of the federal government. I read it a couple years ago and would paraphrase what I read but my memory is not that good. I looked for it one time since then and couldn't find it.

I do remember it discusses not having the ability for an operator to switch the brake circuit off.

[CE Vogel]

Originally Posted by gklott

NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles, §8.4.1.4 (also Canadian CSA Z240) requires the breakaway brake system. NFPA Figure 8.4.1.7 shows the switch connected directly to 'a battery' with no overcurrent protection. However, this seems to be in conflict with the RVIA Low Voltage standard which requires overcurrent protection between your battery and "everything", including the breakaway switch.
73/gus

My ATC trailer took a different approach to protecting breakaway wiring while having no overcurrent protection between the battery and the breakaway switch. In addition to the house batteries, it has a small 7AH gell cell battery directly wired to the breakaway switch. It is charged by a small trickle charger off the house batteries. All these components are available from ETrailer. The small battery cannot provide enough current to set the wiring on fire, but does provide enough power to set the trailer brakes.

[John in Santa Cruz]

non RV trailers with e-brakes will have a small AGM or gel cell like that, charged by the tow vehicle. I wonder if that ATC trailer was 'built' on a generic trailer platform where the house battery is optional and only used in some configurations.

[CE Vogel]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

non RV trailers with e-brakes will have a small AGM or gel cell like that, charged by the tow vehicle. I wonder if that ATC trailer was 'built' on a generic trailer platform where the house battery is optional and only used in some configurations.

My ATC was factory built as an RV. However, ATC started out as a car hauler manufacturer, and is the reason I purchased this RV. The frame and running gear are substantial and can tolerate the bouncing and jolting of my tow vehicle.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by CE Vogel

My ATC trailer took a different approach to protecting breakaway wiring while having no overcurrent protection between the battery and the breakaway switch. In addition to the house batteries, it has a small 7AH gell cell battery directly wired to the breakaway switch. It is charged by a small trickle charger off the house batteries. All these components are available from ETrailer. The small battery cannot provide enough current to set the wiring on fire, but does provide enough power to set the trailer brakes.

This is a good approach that complies with NFPA 1192, §8.4.1.4 and §8.4.1.5. I've seen this in other trailers too.

According to eTrailer, "Maximum amperage draw for 4 Brakes that are 10 or 12 inch diameter is 15.0 to 16.3 amps at 12 to 13 volts."
A 7 Ahr 12V (~75Whr) gelcell battery would work for enough minutes to apply the brakes (~200W).

You should have a charge indicator or a routine check that the separate breakaway battery has adequate charge. I normally get 3-4 years service on these type batteries.

73/gus

[CE Vogel]

Originally Posted by gklott

You should have a charge indicator or a routine check that the separate breakaway battery has adequate charge. I normally get 3-4 years service on these type batteries.
73/gus

Good point about verifying breakaway battery condition. I had a connector pull off the breakaway battery on my prior trailer, which I caught during a 'tug test'. Hitch up the trailer, pull the breakaway switch pin, then drive forward a few feet. The trailer brakes should drag hard. A simple voltmeter or test light battery check is insufficient, as a weak battery will check fine while not being able to provide enough current to activate brakes.

[DGLP]

Originally Posted by gklott

This is a good approach that complies with NFPA 1192, §8.4.1.4 and §8.4.1.5. I've seen this in other trailers too.

According to eTrailer, "Maximum amperage draw for 4 Brakes that are 10 or 12 inch diameter is 15.0 to 16.3 amps at 12 to 13 volts."
A 7 Ahr 12V (~75Whr) gelcell battery would work for enough minutes to apply the brakes (~200W).

You should have a charge indicator or a routine check that the separate breakaway battery has adequate charge. I normally get 3-4 years service on these type batteries.

73/gus

Gus, I have an AGM battery for my motorcycle, 8 AH, which has worked well for 3 years. A few weeks ago, it didn't take much time to reach full charge after I hadn't used it for some months. No issues starting the bike to empty the carburetors. This one is available on Amazon for $30.99:

https://www.amazon.com/CALTRIC-BATTE.../dp/B01DGLLMPQ

I use a 4 amp Duracell charger for the motorcycle battery and the Honda snowblower battery. it comes with ring terminals and clamps that connect to the charger by SAE connectors. $59.99 at Costco. $69 and change at Home Depot or on Amazon.

https://www.costco.com/duracell-4-am...d945QD9Fw3JVMy

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Duracell...N0JnEBDhZC-qtM

[DGLP]

Originally Posted by CE Vogel

My ATC trailer took a different approach to protecting breakaway wiring while having no overcurrent protection between the battery and the breakaway switch. In addition to the house batteries, it has a small 7AH gell cell battery directly wired to the breakaway switch. It is charged by a small trickle charger off the house batteries. All these components are available from ETrailer. The small battery cannot provide enough current to set the wiring on fire, but does provide enough power to set the trailer brakes.

Great info. Craig, do you have a photo of your setup? Where are the batteries located? Ours are in the storage box, in close proximity to the breakaway switch.