TriMetric install on a 17B

[AKCamper]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Just an additional point - the Victron company also makes a solar controller that is also bluetooth programable.

I noticed that AM Solar is hot on the Victron Charging controllers. The SmartSolar controllers are Bluetooth copatable while the BlueSolar controllers need a plug in VE Direct Bluetooth Smart dongle to make it Bluetooth comparable. Victron says the seperate “dongle” makes the controller not accessible when disconnected. My question is, can anyone access your controller with their phone if they have the Victron app on their phone or is it password protected? Hopefully the person in the trailer next door couldn’t change your settings while he was adjusting his Victron.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That would work, but you don't need the controller to be close to the battery for ideal operation - you just need the controller to sense the voltage at the battery instead of at the other end of long wires carrying current. A solution is a controller with an input for voltage sense wires from the battery, separate from the wires carrying the charging current from the controller to the battery.

I hate to disagree with you, Brian, but I stick by my original statement, which was that the solar controller, not a battery monitor controller, should be located as close to the batteries as possible. To reduce voltage losses from solar controller to batteries. Standard stuff. Maybe my original statement was fuzzy. Sorry if so. Still, nine out of ten experts agree that solar controller should be located as close to batteries as practical. To reduce voltage losses. No?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

I hate to disagree with you, Brian, but I stick by my original statement, which was that the solar controller ... should be located as close to the batteries as possible. To reduce voltage losses from solar controller to batteries. Standard stuff. Maybe my original statement was fuzzy. Sorry if so. Still, nine out of ten experts agree that solar controller should be located as close to batteries as practical. To reduce voltage losses. No?

Yes, but the only reason voltage loss matters is that the controller's behaviour is programmed based on the voltage it sees. If, like most controllers, it only sees the voltage at its own output terminals, then any loss in the wiring from controller to battery means that the battery does not get charged to the right voltage; however, if the controller has separate sense wires it can charge the battery correctly (based on the battery voltage, not the controller output voltage) regardless of the loss in the wires.

Since most solar charge controllers are as cheap as possible, they only sense the voltage at their output terminals, and thus they do need to be "close" (electrically) to the battery to charge properly; the Escape's optional controller is one of these, but almost all RV solar charge controllers seem to be in this category. Regulators for automotive alternators have a similar situation - only some have a separate sense wire. Here's a decent description by Delco Remy: Remote Sense.

This is one solar installer's description, which is technically marginal but explains the use in practice:

What are the "Sense" terminals on my controller?
Some charge controllers have a pair of "sense" terminals. Sense terminals carry very low current, around 1/10th of a milliamp at most, so there is no voltage drop. What it does is "look" at the battery voltage and compares it to what the controller is putting out. If there is a voltage drop between the charge controller and the battery, it will raise the controller output slightly to compensate.

These are only used when you have a long wire run between the controller and the battery. These wires carry no current, and can be pretty small - #20 to #16 AWG. We prefer to use #16 because it is not easily cut or squished accidentally. They attach to the SENSE terminals on the controller, and onto the same terminals as the two charging wires at the battery end.

It's not about efficiency or power loss: in a normal setup (nominal voltage of panels the same as the battery), just as much power will be lost by extra wire length or small-gauge wires on the panel side of the controller as the same extra wire length or small-gauge wires on the battery side of the controller. It's all about seeing the voltage to be controlled.

[sclifrickson]

Ah. Yes, of course that makes sense. So the bottom line is that for the OP to put a visual readout (whether that be a remote readout or the solar controller itself) an extra set of wires (besides those doing the charging) should ideally be run to the vicinity of the batteries. And the charge controller ought to either be of a type that has a remote controller, or remote voltage sensing probe. I was only familiar with the former option, not the latter. Thanks for edumucating me [emoji6]

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by AKCamper

I think if I were going to have a trimetric monitor installed I would go with a trimetric charge controller installed instead of the go power and have it installed as close to the batteries as possible. Escape might not install a different controller in a different location but you could have them run the wires where you want.

Agreed. A Trimetric battery monitor working with one of their solar controllers would be a robust combo, made to interface with each other. Minus the fancy interface of the Victron setup.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by AKCamper

I noticed that AM Solar is hot on the Victron Charging controllers. The SmartSolar controllers are Bluetooth copatable while the BlueSolar controllers need a plug in VE Direct Bluetooth Smart dongle to make it Bluetooth comparable. Victron says the seperate “dongle” makes the controller not accessible when disconnected. My question is, can anyone access your controller with their phone if they have the Victron app on their phone or is it password protected? Hopefully the person in the trailer next door couldn’t change your settings while he was adjusting his Victron.

Uhm, I have found that my neighbor’s BMV-702 is not password protected. But I’d imagine a software update might change that at any time in the future, if Victron should decide to up their security game.

[Lanark Camper]

Thanks for the wealth of information pouring into this thread.

I'm familiar with the remote sensing alternators and solar charge controllers and they do work very well. Without the sense ability it is recommended to use the shortest heaviest wires practical to keep the power loss at minimal and the voltage to the batteries high.

All that being said there are always compromises and personal preferences that come into play. I don't like to see wires connected to wet cells with ring terminals. They corrode, don't maintain a good connection, need to be cleaned and or replaced regularly.
I've asked Escape if they will connect the solar controller to the battery cables at the converter. I don't know what size these wires are connecting the converter to the battery but assume they are correct for the 50 A charging output of the converter. With the little 170 W panel I understand they are supplying and the typical output current I can expect I don't think the loss in these cables is a concern for me.

Having the shunt in the battery cable right at the converter also works well for me. I don't know of any reason it would need to be close to the battery. The current is the same at any point in that wire. Its better if the shunt and connections are inside the trailer easily accessible rather than in a waterproof box on the rear bumper.

I don't intend to connect anything to the batteries except from the converter/power distribution box.

I'm still mulling over the battery monitor/ solar controller options. I'm going to call Escape before we sign off on our build sheet. Who would be the best person to talk to about these modifications ? I need someone who understands what I'm asking for and knows if they will do it.

Bob

[AKCamper]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That would work, but you don't need the controller to be close to the battery for ideal operation - you just need the controller to sense the voltage at the battery instead of at the other end of long wires carrying current. A solution is a controller with an input for voltage sense wires from the battery, separate from the wires carrying the charging current from the controller to the battery.

Brian,
This may work but both AM Solar and Handymen Bob recommend the controller be close as possible to the batteries. Handyman Bob supports this by saying:

“From the controller to the batteries the wire size is critical. The bigger the better. If you cannot design for less than a 1% drop due to the length of run, it is possible with better controllers (Morningstar Tristar & Prostar, plus a few others) to use remote voltage sensing and the controller will boost the voltage going out, so that the correct voltage reaches the batteries. Do not be tempted to use this as a way of installing smaller wires. Voltage drop in the run between the controller and the batteries equals wattage loss in charging. Fewer watts come out of the end of the wire than go in when the voltage drops. This means that using smaller wires here will cost you watts charging every day forever. This is a foolish place to save a few dollars.”

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by AKCamper

"Voltage drop in the run between the controller and the batteries equals wattage loss in charging. Fewer watts come out of the end of the wire than go in when the voltage drops. This means that using smaller wires here will cost you watts charging every day forever. This is a foolish place to save a few dollars.”

You have cable from the panels to the battery. The total length and gauge determine power loss. How much is on which side of the controller doesn't matter (assuming nominal panel voltage corresponding to battery voltage) if the controller has remote sense; that doesn't change the fact that you need suitable cable. No one is suggesting using undersized wire, anywhere.

Some people confuse the control issue and the power loss calculation and so ignore all that tiny wire from panels (especially portable) to controller. So, wires from the panels to the controller "is a foolish place to save a few dollars”, too.

It seems likely that AM Solar doesn't sell a charge controller with remote sense - what a company doesn't sell is usually dismissed by them as inferior.

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

Uhm, I have found that my neighbor’s BMV-702 is not password protected. But I’d imagine a software update might change that at any time in the future, if Victron should decide to up their security game.

The BMV-712 has a pin that controls the connection between the app and the device. It is user changeable. I really need to do that...

[Lanark Camper]

I just heard back from Melisa at Escape, she asked her supervisor if the charging wires from the solar controller could be run to the battery cables on the converter instead of being attached to the other end of those same wires at the batteries. He told her the trailer is certified as wired, no changes are allowed. I would have to do that after delivery.

Maybe the days of getting it your way are over ? Our build sheet needs to be signed mid-April. So far the solution for the few changes I've asked for has been for me to do it myself after I take delivery.

I would be much happier if I felt we were working together to end up with the trailer I want.

Bob

[brightday]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

A last suggestion - look at the Victron battery monitor. The advantage over the Trimetric is it connects to your phone via bluetooth, providing more information in a more useful display. While I have the Trimetric, if I was starting over it would be the Victron.

Would the Victron battery monitor be an add-on from another vendor? Would you recommend adding any of the other inside monitors to my build sheet due tomorrow? (Yikes! Getting down to the wire! ) Thanks for any suggestions!

Ava

[Vermilye]

Neither the Trimetric or Victron monitors are installed by Escape. They will run the wire between the batteries (shunt location) and your choice of the monitor location, but the installation is up to you. Basically, it requires placing a shunt in series with the negative battery cable as close as possible to the battery, running a wire to the display/monitor, and, of course, mounting the monitor.

[brightday]

Thanks, Jon! Do you recommend that I have ETI wire for any other monitors/devices? I'm having them wire for potential TV use, the Zamp solar port, and inside cabinets.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by brightday

Would the Victron battery monitor be an add-on from another vendor? Would you recommend adding any of the other inside monitors to my build sheet due tomorrow? (Yikes! Getting down to the wire! ) Thanks for any suggestions!

Ava

Extended version of Jon's description of what it takes to install a battery monitor.

1. Installation of the Victron battery monitor requires cutting a hole in the paneling to mount the monitor indicator
   
2. Installation of the battery shunt. Installing the battery shunt will require modifying the battery cables to allow the shunt to see all current from the batteries to the trailer from the negative battery terminal. This usually requires cutting/crimping the battery cables.
   
3. Running a small cable from the shunt to the monitor. This can be done by Escape if the cable is supplied prior to construction of the trailer.

You are from Houston - if you need help with this, I have the hydraulic battery cable crimpers, hole saw, and have done this before.

[Vermilye]

The only additional wiring I asked Escape for was drops in each overhead cabinet so I could install LED lighting inside them.

If you are not getting a radio installed by Escape, but think you may want to add one in the future, wiring for power & speakers might be a consideration.

[brightday]

Tom,
You offered to do this earlier, thanks! I just didn't realize that THIS was what you were offering at that time. Went back in my notes and voila! As you can see, I'm down to the nitty-gritty here. Have grabbed a few sweet moments with family here at the beach but am leaving in an hour to return to Houston. Will be SOOOOO glad to have this build sheet finished - and then hoping to enjoy everything I've added for the next 15 years or so. Thanks!!!!!

[brightday]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

If you are not getting a radio installed by Escape, but think you may want to add one in the future, wiring for power & speakers might be a consideration.

Hmmm. Radio installation and speakers. Gonna add that, thanks!

[fudge_brownie]

As I posted earlier in this thread I have a love/hate relationship with my TriMetric battery monitor. I recently had the need to upgrade my controller. It had to handle a 24 volt panel and it made sense to change to MMPT at the same time. Since the Victron monitor had numerous positive posts I decided to look at their controllers.

I discovered Victron makes a series of smart controllers. Built into the controller is a Bluetooth battery monitor that connects to their free smart app. It does not require a shunt.

I have used this system the past week and I must say it is very impressive. It gives me better information than my existing TriMetric. The app is excellent in graphic information and particularly recording and graphing history. A very simple install and setup. If it has a drawback it is the range of the Bluetooth, because it uses version 4.0, a low energy firmware. It works at a range of about 20 feet. Since my batteries are in the back of the trailer I could not get a signal while driving.

I would consider dropping the GoPower controller that Escape provides and install a Victron. Cost of $115 at Amazon.

[EscapeBoulder]

You might also take a look at the Victron BMV 712 Smart battery monitor. We have one in our 19'er and love it. I put the shunt right at the negative pole of the battery to insure it catches all the electrons. Escape ran the cable for me during our build from the shunt to the cabinet where I put the meter. (See pic.) The meter bluetooths to my devices so I can monitor the batteries from the tow vehicle or even from the kitchen in my house.

https://www.victronenergy.com/batter.../bmv-712-smart