120V Electric Question

[peleuba]

I took delivery of a new 2024 Escape 19 on July 13th and have used a several times. Its been mostly a good experience. After reading many of the excellent posts by Alan E (Centex) and Tom (tdf-texas) I took their advice and re-worked much of the 12V wiring.

First thing I did was to add a 200A Class T “catastrophic” fuse and block immediately off the battery. I then ditched the Escape provided fuses and jumpers and added a Victron busbar/fuse block populated with 5 “mega” fuses for the MPPT, DC-DC Charger, Inverter, Converter, and a separate Blue Sea Systems 12V “blade fuse block I installed. Gone are the 50A auto resetting circuit breaker and the 30A surface mounted manual reset breaker for the solar panels. In its place, I’ve added a true solar isolator switch. Where it made sense, I increased the wire size and added ferrules for a more solid connection to the devices.

So, at this point, I have a terrific handle on the 12V systems and how it all works in my trailer. However, the 120V side is a different story…

For the life of me, I cannot determine what one of the 20A breakers in my panel does. It was originally labeled Hot Water Heater but that was in error. In fact, like a lot of others, my panel was mostly labeled incorrectly. See photo below. It has two columns – one showing the original label and the second showing what is actually on the circuit.

As a follow-up to my point above, the hot water heater was controlled via a pigtail off the same breaker that fed the 120V side of the converter. In true Escape fashion this was wrongly labeled Compressor Fridge. The Norcold compressor fridge on my trailer is 12V only - there is no 120V going to it nor needed Nevertheless, I don’t like pigtails so have replaced the mislabeled breaker with a tandem breaker to power both the hot water heater and the converter.

So, looking at the attached photo, what does breaker #3 do? It’s a 20A breaker that has a wire leading to it… When I shut it off, nothing seems to be affected. Its not the air conditioner, hot water heater, fridge, microwave, receptacles, or converter. What else is there?

Thanks for any assistance.


===
Links to items mentioned above:

Class T Fuse and block: https://www.bluesea.com/products/500..._-_110_to_200A).

Victron Fuse Bank:
https://www.amazon.com/Victron-6-Way...MV-&hvexpln=73

Solar Isolator Switch:
https://shop.explorist.life/shop/all...or-disconnect/

[wackyburggeezer]

Can you trace the hot coming off the suspect breaker back to where it (in Romex) it goes? By any chance, do you have access to an ammeter? If yes, check to see if there's any current flowing in the hot when the breaker is closed. Have you checked all of the various cabinets for a Romex cable left dangling without a load? If the Romex containing your mystery conductor is a 12/3, and you know where the other hot goes, you might look for the mystery conductor near where that other hot is utilized. Seriously, Good Luck!

[Ron in BC]

Nothing new about them using a pigtail to do double duty. On Gen1s it was the converter and microwave.

I'm not understanding why the receptacles would be on a 20 amp circuit breaker. Mine are on a 15 amp circuit.

What gage wire goes to the 20 amp breaker?

Maybe someone with a fairly new Escape can comment on what gage wire is now powering the receptacles.

Ron

[peleuba]

Thanks for the feedback and questions...

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Nothing new about them using a pigtail to do double duty. On Gen1s it was the converter and microwave.

Correct. But on mine it was labeled wrong so as part of the troubleshooting process I just switched it to a duplex breaker.

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

I'm not understanding why the receptacles would be on a 20 amp circuit breaker. Mine are on a 15 amp circuit.

I am not sure what you mean. My receptacles are not powered by a 20A breaker. They're powered via a sub panel which is linked to a 30A CB in the main. Its the last breaker in my panel. See the attached photo that has it listed. The sub panel has 15A duplex breaker that powers three circuits, 2 for receptacles and 1 for the microwave.

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

What gage wire goes to the 20 amp breaker?

12 Gage.

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Maybe someone with a fairly new Escape can comment on what gage wire is now powering the receptacles.

I will double check the wire size... The question is not what is powering the receptacles, but what does the mystery 20A breaker really do.

[peleuba]

Originally Posted by wackyburggeezer

Can you trace the hot coming off the suspect breaker back to where it (in Romex) it goes? By any chance, do you have access to an ammeter? If yes, check to see if there's any current flowing in the hot when the breaker is closed. Have you checked all of the various cabinets for a Romex cable left dangling without a load? If the Romex containing your mystery conductor is a 12/3, and you know where the other hot goes, you might look for the mystery conductor near where that other hot is utilized. Seriously, Good Luck!

Thanks. Yes, I have tried tracing this without much luck as the wire disappears.

Here are the 120V loads I have identified:

1. Hot Water Heater
2. Air Conditioner
3. Sub Panel ---> Microwave and Receptacles
4. Converter

Thanks.

[Viajante]

Is there a 120v option that you did not get, but for which a dead end wire was installed?

[GinoandLinda]

Originally Posted by Viajante

Is there a 120v option that you did not get, but for which a dead end wire was installed?

Heating pads for tanks?

[Centex]

Paul -

IMO at this point what would be helpful is a table showing your current (as now modified) 120VAC breaker 'topology'.

Hopefully that will show the 'mystery wire' formerly connected to a 20A breaker (serving no known equipment) is currently not connected to any breaker. IMO it is never a good idea to have a wire connected to a 120V breaker that doesn't terminate at a 120V equipment input (one should never have a 120V wire connected to a breaker and terminating at an unused 'dead-end' no matter how that 'dead end' is insulated).
_________________

Looking at the column "Actual Items on Circuit" on the table in your first post, I note the absence of mention of your compressor fridge. By any chance does your compressor fridge have provisions for both 12VDC and 120VAC power input (some do, some don't)?

If yes, that might be the equipment on the 'mystery' 120VAC wire. Toggling the breaker OFF might not have revealed anything 'not-functioning' because the fridge would automatically use the 12VDC input to continue operating in the absence of a direct 120VAC power source.
_______________

Why do some 'DC compressor' fridge's have provisions for 120VAC input? It's a way to reduce load on a trailer / boat's master AC>DC converter / battery charger, leaving more 'juice' for battery charging when connected to shore power. When the fridge senses 120VAC shore power available, it uses that power source with its internal AC>DC converter to power the compressor, thereby reducing the load on the trailer / boat AC>DC converter / battery charger.

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by GinoandLinda

Heating pads for tanks?

Tank heating pads are are 12v.

I wonder if the 120V outlet used for the absorption fridge remains in place (behind the compressor fridge) and wired to that mystery breaker?

I wouldn't think that ETI would intentionally wire the converter and HW heater (both potentially high draw devices) to the same 15A circuit. Will they not provide 120V wiring diagrams if requested?

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by peleuba

I am not sure what you mean. My receptacles are not powered by a 20A breaker. They're powered via a sub panel which is linked to a 30A CB in the main.

Just so we don't cause anyone to look at their panel and see all 15 amp circuit breakers and say OMG I got cheated out of a 20 amp breaker, my 2019 has all 15 amp circuit breakers and no subpanel. I guess that it's dependent on how much extra equipment you have over the basic setup.

So, to confirm, when you leave the main and mystery circuit breakers "on" and every other circuit breaker "off" absolutely everything is dead?

Ron

[peleuba]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Just so we don't cause anyone to look at their panel and see all 15 amp circuit breakers and say OMG I got cheated out of a 20 amp breaker, my 2019 has all 15 amp circuit breakers and no subpanel. I guess that it's dependent on how much extra equipment you have over the basic setup.

So, to confirm, when you leave the main and mystery circuit breakers "on" and every other circuit breaker "off" absolutely everything is dead?

Thanks again for the help. Yes, I have full factory solar and an inverter so my microwave and all receptacles are powered from a subpanel that leads back to a transfer switch. This is so that if not plugged into shore power I can fire up the inverter which will power the microwave and receptacles via the transfer switch. If there is no inverter you’ll not have a transfer switch and sub panel.

Yes. Correct. Everything is powered down and dead.

I only have two thoughts…. One is that the heat strip included with the air conditioner could be powered off of this breaker; or I wonder of this is an artifact from the three way refrigerator? I opted for the compressor model. Escape may have had the wiring for the 3 way as part of the bundle and just included it in my camper.

[C&G in FL]

A lot of water has gone over the dam since 2015 when I purchased my Escape. At that time, Reace (original owner and founder of ETI) told me that there was only one 20 amp circuit wired with AWG 12 and that was the air conditioner. All other circuits were 15 amp wired with AWG 14. The 3-way absorption refrigerators do not require a 20 amp circuit, only a 15 amp circuit if running on 120 vac. My first thought when the OP stated there was a “phantom” 20 amp breaker in slot 3 was that it was for the A/C. However, the OP states that he has traced the A/C to the breaker in slot 2. While the suggestion was made that it might be powering the heat strip, my understanding is that the same line that powers the fan and the fan and the compressor powers the heat strip when heat rather than cooling is called for. That is hearsay from another Escape owner; I did not opt for a heat strip. The only way to know is to turn on the heat strip, and when it starts producing heat, turn off the mystery breaker.

[peleuba]

Originally Posted by Centex

Paul -

IMO at this point what would be helpful is a table showing your current (as now modified) 120VAC breaker 'topology'.

Good idea. Done. See attached. It represents precisely how my panel is labeled today and is completely accurate.

Originally Posted by Centex

Hopefully that will show the 'mystery wire' formerly connected to a 20A breaker (serving no known equipment) is currently not connected to any breaker. IMO it is never a good idea to have a wire connected to a 120V breaker that doesn't terminate at a 120V equipment input (one should never have a 120V wire connected to a breaker and terminating at an unused 'dead-end' no matter how that 'dead end' is insulated).

It shows the 20A breaker with no known termination. I, too, think its horrible to have a circuit terminate in a "dead-end" manner. This is why I am trying to locate it.

Originally Posted by Centex

Looking at the column "Actual Items on Circuit" on the table in your first post, I note the absence of mention of your compressor fridge.
By any chance does your compressor fridge have provisions for both 12VDC and 120VAC power input (some do, some don't)?

The compressor model that Escape is using is the Norcold N2175. As an aside, its performance has been excellent. The Owner's Manual only references a 12V connection and it mentions this warning: This appliance is designed for 12V DC supply voltage. Do not attempt to run the refrigerator at any other voltage or with any other means of supply

As others have suggested and I recently pondered, I wonder if Escape included the receptacle in the back for the more common 3-way fridge?

Thanks for the help. At this point I am not sure I'll ever know where it terminates.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by peleuba

.... It shows the 20A breaker with no known termination. I, too, think its horrible to have a circuit terminate in a "dead-end" manner. This is why I am trying to locate it. ....

Personally, I'd remove the wire at the breaker until its termination is identified / revealed by something not working as expected. YMMV.

Got ya on my fridge 120VAC supply thought - obviously that's not applicable to your case.
____________________

I am curious about Breaker #5, 30A, "Transfer Switch/Sub-panel (Microwave and Receptacles)"....

Understanding that the 30A breaker protects the wire to the Transfer Switch/Sub-panel, I'm curious the AWG of that wire? Noting that per NEC, 10AWG NM-B (aka 'Romex') wire is required to achieve 30A ampacity (thus the minimum AWG for a 30A breaker).

Then, moving to the referenced Sub-panel, a separate 'breaker topology table' for that Sub-panel would be interesting to 'complete' your 120VAC system understanding.

Does that Sub-panel contain multiple breakers for the Microwave separate from other receptacles, and what AWG is used for the wiring between the Sub-panel and those receptacles? Noting that all of the receptacles in my trailer are rated 15A (all have two flat blade-slots, none have a "T" slot indicating a 20A receptacle rating) and all are/were wired with 14AWG NM-B.

Per NEC, 14AWG NM-B has an ampacity of 15A, 12AWG NM-B has an ampacity of 20A.

NEC allows any number of 15A receptacles on a 20A branch circuit breaker wired with 12AWG. The receptacles are 'protected' from overload by the slot configuration, the wire is protected to its rated ampacity by the 20A breaker, the branch circuit allows cumulative device loads plugged into receptacles up to 20A total.

However, NEC requires a 15A breaker for any circuit wired with 14AWG, the limiting factor being the wire ampacity.

[peleuba]

Originally Posted by Centex

Personally, I'd remove the wire at the breaker until its termination is identified / revealed by something not working as expected. YMMV.

Got ya on my fridge 120VAC supply thought - obviously that's not applicable to your case.

The 12V fridge is excellent. I owned a Casita for 13 years with the typical 3-way fridge. With some tweaks and an auxiliary fan blowing over the rear coils, I got really good performance with it - especially on propane. I then had a very brief foray into stick built campers. The Winnebago I owned had a 12V compressor fridge and I liked it - but hated the camper. So with the Escape I always planned to have a 12V compressor fridge. They are quite efficient.

I appreciate the help you and others have given. Sometimes I tend to overthink this stuff. Good idea to remove the wire from the breaker rather then just shut off the breaker.

What started all of this was that my hot water heater was producing hot water even when the propane and the outdoor AC switch was off. I could not figure it out. As it turns out, I expereinced two unrelated problems.... (1) the breaker was mislabeled so the Hot Water Heater breaker was not controlling the HWH. And, (2) the on/off toggle switch outside at the HWH was internally stuck in the "On" position. So even when I switched the mislabeled breaker off, it still would produce hot water. It took a few days for me to figure this out. I never would have thought that ANY of the breakers would be mislabeled as that could lead to a dangerous situation - thinking something is off, but its really not.

These issues encouraged me to take a deep dive into how the trailer was wired on the 120V side. I had already reworked much of the 12V stuff.

Thanks and Best Regards.

[wackyburggeezer]

Another tool for the toolbox might be a "TickTracer". Gardner-Bender sells a GVD-3505 Non- Contact Voltage Tester for under $20 US. By opening all other breakers in your panel, with the mystery wire still connected, placing the tester on the jacket of a Romex containing the last energized wire will cause the neon bulb in the tester to light up. Also works to tell if a receptacle is energized, by inserting the tip of the tester into either of the openings in the receptacle.

[peleuba]

Originally Posted by wackyburggeezer

Another tool for the toolbox might be a "TickTracer". Gardner-Bender sells a GVD-3505 Non- Contact Voltage Tester for under $20 US.

Yes! I have the Klein Tools version of a contactless voltage tester. This and my multimeter, pinned down the mislabeled breakers.

[Perry Butler]

Sitting in Burger King after a funeral waiting for our Ioniq to charge.

This may have been written about already.

They may have wired the camper for a 12/120v/propane absorption fridge Go outside. Do you have a grill for the fridge on the side of your trailer? If so, remove the grill and see if there is a 120v female receptacle in that cavity. Is it hot? If so, you have found your 20 amp outlet. If not, oh well.

Enjoy,

Perry

[peleuba]

Originally Posted by Perry Butler

They may have wired the camper for a 12/120v/propane absorption fridge Go outside. Do you have a grill for the fridge on the side of your trailer? If so, remove the grill and see if there is a 120v female receptacle in that cavity. Is it hot? If so, you have found your 20 amp outlet. If not, oh well.

Hi Perry - Thanks. No vents on the outside of my camper. But that was a good thought.

[peleuba]

Originally Posted by Centex

Understanding that the 30A breaker protects the wire to the Transfer Switch/Sub-panel, I'm curious the AWG of that wire?

Its 10GA Romex wire from the main breaker box on the power center to the sub panel.

Originally Posted by Centex

Then, moving to the referenced Sub-panel, a separate 'breaker topology table' for that Sub-panel would be interesting to 'complete' your 120VAC system understanding.

Yes, its much easier for the sub-panel as there is no mystery.

Originally Posted by Centex

Does that Sub-panel contain multiple breakers for the Microwave separate from other receptacles, and what AWG is used for the wiring between the Sub-panel and those receptacles?

I have attached a photo of my sub panel, It contains a single 15A duplex breaker. There are three circuits. being run to the duplex breaker so one is pigtailed. The circuits consist of receptacles and the microwave. Hopefully the MW is on its own, but I've not yet determined if this is so. Will do so later this week.

Originally Posted by Centex

Noting that all of the receptacles in my trailer are rated 15A (all have two flat blade-slots, none have a "T" slot indicating a 20A receptacle rating) and all are/were wired with 14AWG NM-B

All my receptacles are the 15A variant with the straight slots.

You bring up an interesting point on wire ampacity. Romex is color coded:
Orange = 10GA / 30A
Yellow = 12GA / 20A
White = 14GA / 15A

The branch circuit lines coming out of the sub panel for the MW and the receptacles are wired with "white" Romex, so am assuming its 14GA.