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Old 06-08-2018, 09:39 PM   #41
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most vehicle factory tow wiring has that disconnect relay (at least my fords and toyotas have had it), so if the car is off, the vehicle power to the trailer is disconnected...

I do try and unplug the trailer from the truck as soon as I park... the brake circuit stays live and can conceivably discharge the vehicle battery.
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:16 AM   #42
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Well, after learning quite a bit about the battery wiring due to this thread - on Monday, the trailer gets new battery wiring.

The existing wiring works most of the time but not in certain situations. To me, that's not acceptable as the wiring should be adequate under all conditions. Fuses should only blow if something has failed - not that you didn't follow a defined procedure to get around the inadequacy of the wiring. Below are the components that I chose to upgrade the circuit.

New wiring:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
New Maxi fuse holder with a 60 amp fuse:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
New battery disconnect switch:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The existing fuse holder had to be replaced as the largest fuse it will take is 40 amps - I needed at least 55 amps. The existing battery disconnect switch is rated at 30 amps - the new one is rated at 300 amps (and gets rid of that #$% toggle switch handle). And of course, new red and black 6 AWG wiring.

Anything I missed?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wire.jpg (179.1 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg fuse.jpg (126.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Switch.jpg (315.7 KB, 17 views)
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:38 AM   #43
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12V issues

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Originally Posted by tdf-texas View Post
The existing fuse holder had to be replaced as the largest fuse it will take is 40 amps - I needed at least 55 amps. The existing battery disconnect switch is rated at 30 amps - the new one is rated at 300 amps (and gets rid of that #$% toggle switch handle). And of course, new red and black 6 AWG wiring.

Thanks! Got it added to my list!

Fred M.
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Old 06-09-2018, 12:52 PM   #44
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The NEC has several different wiring ampacity charts One wiring chart lists the ampacity of wiring that is in a cable or in a raceway , another chart shows the ampacity of conductors in free air . A # 10 copper conductor can legally carry 30 amps in a cable or raceway and can carry 50 Amps in free air . Most inspectors do not consider wiring run inside of compartments or confined spaces or enclosures as being in free air so the lower ampacity must be used .
The normal trade practice is to take the FLA X1.25 to determine the conductor and device size . It appears that Escape does not follow best trade practice and from my experience this will lead to problems somewhere down the road
As an example the battery disconnect should have been sized at 50 amps not 30 amps to insure that the switch is capable of being opened or closed under full load .
Also crimp splices should be made with an indenter style crimper and wiring should be run continuously from point to point . Splicing of wires in the middle of a run is not allowed
If the wire is 6Ē short then you pull the wire out and replace it with a longer wire , you DONíT just crimp on a 6Ē piece .

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Old 06-11-2018, 05:14 AM   #45
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Same issue???

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Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
OK friends,

Starting some trouble shooting this morning.

After being in an RV park for a couple of months, we disconnected to spend a few days at a state park.

Upon disconnecting from shore power, I noticed that fridge was having issues switching to propane. It did not take long to lose all 12V in the trailer.

However, when I turned on the TV, 12V returned to the trailer and fridge came on propane.

Arrived at state park, connected to shore power, all seems well.

Summary: while not on shore power, TV provides 12V DC, trailer has 12V power...TV turned off, trailer has no 12V power.

Gonna start by checking the two 6V batteries, but any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
Fred M. I had the same problem today. I was at a campground since last Sunday on shore power. I packed up to leave, unplugged the power cord and tried to raise the power jacks on my 5.0 TA. They didn’t move hitting the switch. On my trailer the fuse in the battery box is a 40 amp fuse. It was open. I plugged the power cord back in to shore power and was able to activate the jacks. What I did notice was that the panel that shows the tank and battery level showed the battery was 100% full when I pressed that button. This panel would only display when plugged into shore power. When unplugged the trailer was completely dead because of that open fuse. I’m confused how it could read 100% with the fuse open. Even after reading this whole thread, I still don’t understand why the fuse opened. My batteries were fully charged as this was my first camping trip this season. I had the batteries out over the winter and charged them before reinstalling them. There’s no way to know when the fuse opened as everything works when on shore power. I did raise the jacks unplugged from shore power when I left on this trip. I replaced the fuse and drove 8 hours to get home and the fuse is still good. Any other ideas why the fuse opened??
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:17 AM   #46
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thats pretty freaky, for sure.

volt meter checks with the TV off and on, at all stages of the DC connections to the fridge.... there's probably a sketchy connection somewhere.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:18 AM   #47
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wait. by TV you means Tow Vehicle, not Television, hah.

that does sound like a battery or battery connection problem.
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:16 AM   #48
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Over current device need to be cordinated or cascaded properly in order to open under fault in the proper order
If the fuses in the trailer are not properly coordinated you can end up taking out the larger fuse in the circuit and not the smaller ones
IE I plugged a 1/2 drill into an receptacle on a 20 amp branch circuit , the drill shorted out , the 20 amp branch circuit breaker did not trip , the 200 amp main breaker in the panel did not trip but the 600 amp feeder fuses did open.It sounds like ETI has some design issues .

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Old 06-11-2018, 09:25 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark&Elaine View Post
Fred M. I had the same problem today. I replaced the fuse and drove 8 hours to get home and the fuse is still good. Any other ideas why the fuse opened??

I still have not found the ďsmoking gunĒ, but I make sure that the TV is not connected/turned on at the same time that the shore power is still on.

I have been consulting with TDF-TEXAS on this issue. He is a retired electrical engineer and I trust his expertise.

When and if I finally discover what I am doing wrong, I will post it here. In the meantime, I carry spare fuses with me.

Thanks

Fred M.
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:57 AM   #50
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I dug into the battery wiring today and found some issues I though should be corrected.

pic1: Existing wiring. The 50 amp thermal breaker is doing nothing as the 40 amp battery fuse will blow first. Also, the 8 gauge wire going to the 7 pin TV connection is going through the 40 amp fuse as well - if it gets wet and shorts, POP! The existing wiring is 8 gauge and according to NEC, is good to 55 amps. The battery disconnect switch may be rated at 50 amps - this is the only one I could find that matches it.
https://www.amazon.com/JT-Products-2.../dp/B002UZW7NG

pic2: New wiring: I moved the 50 amp thermal breaker to protect the 8 gauge wire to the 7 pin - if it pulls too much current, it should trip the thermal breaker rather than blow the battery fuse. I changed the battery wiring to 6 gauge, battery disconnect switch (see parts list in previous post), and increased the battery fuse to 60 amps. According to NEC, 6 gauge is good to 75 amps. A 60 amp fuse should be good, - it is not there to protect devices but to prevent the battery wires melting due to a short.

These changes should help prevent the battery fuse blowing situation.
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File Type: jpg Battery wiring.jpg (7.4 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Battery wiring 2.jpg (8.3 KB, 55 views)
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:30 PM   #51
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Escape - Main Fuse/Breaker Locations

Nice job, I understand the schematics of what you have done. I am not sure all models of Escape have this issue, also am not sure that everyone can distinguish a 50 amp thermal breaker from the 40 amp fuse?

Would a photograph, with the parts labelled, help owners determine if they have a similar design issue? This would also help them become familiar with those "fused areas" and what to look for in the event they have a problem.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:46 PM   #52
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I still have not found the ďsmoking gunĒ, but I make sure that the TV is not connected/turned on at the same time that the shore power is still on.
.
Do you have a power tongue jack?
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:32 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdf-texas View Post
I dug into the battery wiring today and found some issues I though should be corrected.

pic1: Existing wiring. The 50 amp thermal breaker is doing nothing as the 40 amp battery fuse will blow first. Also, the 8 gauge wire going to the 7 pin TV connection is going through the 40 amp fuse as well - if it gets wet and shorts, POP! The existing wiring is 8 gauge and according to NEC, is good to 55 amps. The battery disconnect switch may be rated at 50 amps - this is the only one I could find that matches it.
https://www.amazon.com/JT-Products-2.../dp/B002UZW7NG

pic2: New wiring: I moved the 50 amp thermal breaker to protect the 8 gauge wire to the 7 pin - if it pulls too much current, it should trip the thermal breaker rather than blow the battery fuse. I changed the battery wiring to 6 gauge, battery disconnect switch (see parts list in previous post), and increased the battery fuse to 60 amps. According to NEC, 6 gauge is good to 75 amps. A 60 amp fuse should be good, - it is not there to protect devices but to prevent the battery wires melting due to a short.

These changes should help prevent the battery fuse blowing situation.

Excellent! That will be tops on my mod list as soon as we pick our 21' up ! ( If I find the stuff you found...)



Thanks !


Tim
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:57 PM   #54
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Do you have a power tongue jack?


Yes, I do.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:03 PM   #55
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I dug into the battery wiring today and found some issues I though should be corrected:

Thanks Tom!
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:05 PM   #56
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Nice job, I understand the schematics of what you have done. I am not sure all models of Escape have this issue, also am not sure that everyone can distinguish a 50 amp thermal breaker from the 40 amp fuse?

Would a photograph, with the parts labelled, help owners determine if they have a similar design issue? This would also help them become familiar with those "fused areas" and what to look for in the event they have a problem.
My trailer has the U dinette so your trailer may have different locations.

pic1: Battery fuse holder. You have to remove the battery cover to find this. The Maxi battery fuse is inside the black thing with the red wires coming out of each end.

pic2: Here is a picture of the battery cutoff switch and the 50 amp thermal breaker. Cutoff switch on the left - 50 amp thermal breaker on the right. This is a inside picture of the drivers side corner of the dinette.

pic3: Here is a picture of the 50 amp thermal breaker unmounted. The terminal post on the right has BAT cast into the black substrate and is the input terminal for the breaker. The slightly longer terminal post on the left is the output terminal.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Batt fuse.jpg (208.7 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg Batt disc.jpg (223.2 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg Thermal fuse.jpg (147.6 KB, 52 views)
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:21 PM   #57
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pic1: Existing wiring. The 50 amp thermal breaker is doing nothing as the 40 amp battery fuse will blow first. Also, the 8 gauge wire going to the 7 pin TV connection is going through the 40 amp fuse as well - if it gets wet and shorts, POP! The existing wiring is 8 gauge and according to NEC, is good to 55 amps.
Did you also rewire from the inside trailer connection to the breakout box under the frame? In mine the + wire from the 7 pin is 8 AWG but the wire to the inside of the trailer is quite a bit smaller. I have not pulled it but visual tells me it is 12 AWG. I did not fool with it yet as I would need to upgrade the wire in the truck to either 8 or 6 AWG before it would matter
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:43 PM   #58
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Did you also rewire from the inside trailer connection to the breakout box under the frame? In mine the + wire from the 7 pin is 8 AWG but the wire to the inside of the trailer is quite a bit smaller. I have not pulled it but visual tells me it is 12 AWG. I did not fool with it yet as I would need to upgrade the wire in the truck to either 8 or 6 AWG before it would matter.
I checked it all the way from the battery cutoff switch to the breakout box - 8 AWG all the way.

Back to Fred's situation. I'm curious if starting the TV with the 7 pin connected would pull enough current to pop the 40 amp battery fuse - with the trailer pulling current as well, it wouldn't take too much to make it pop.

The fridge circuit is on a 30 amp fuse - it doesn't pull that much but if it is running on DC, add some other circuits left on, and there's not much current capacity left on that 40 amp fuse.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:54 PM   #59
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I am not sure all models of Escape have this issue,
I'm not sure either. Some of the posts mention their trailers having only the 50 amp thermal breaker. When did Escape start installing the 40 amp fuse in the battery box as that is when the issue began. The 50 amp thermal breaker seems to be a holdover from when that was the only current protection device in the circuit - putting two "fuses" in series is when the problems start.
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Old 06-11-2018, 06:51 PM   #60
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as I think I already said, my 2014 doesn't have any fuses in the battery leads, just the main DC cables through the thermal breaker to the power center. but I also don't have a built in inverter.
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