2000w Generator and Dometic 11,000

[Iowa Dave]

Years ago I bought a small 1300 watt Honda generator for use in the field. It came with a connection (grounding lug) for grounding. We used a short piece of copper cable and a copper rod driven a couple feet into the ground as it was part of the operating instructions.

All of our on light poles were grounded with a heavy copper wire that ran down to a 5/8 inch diameter rod driven 8 feet that was 8 feet long and driven into the ground. You had to put the copper wire inside of a black plastic pipe and use big staples to affix the plastic to the poles.
This was so the meth tweakers would not steal the wire and sell it for money for “supplies”. Out of sight out of destroyed mind.
Iowa Dave

[blue_bullet]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

Years ago I bought a small 1300 watt Honda generator for use in the field. It came with a connection (grounding lug) for grounding. We used a short piece of copper cable and a copper rod driven a couple feet into the ground as it was part of the operating instructions.

All of our on light poles were grounded with a heavy copper wire that ran down to a 5/8 inch diameter rod driven 8 feet that was 8 feet long and driven into the ground. You had to put the copper wire inside of a black plastic pipe and use big staples to affix the plastic to the poles.
This was so the meth tweakers would not steal the wire and sell it for money for “supplies”. Out of sight out of destroyed mind.
Iowa Dave

The instructions that came with my A-iPower Powered by Yamaha Inverter Generators read to use a ground rod for each generator, and my neighbor electrician advised to do the same. Do people on the forum use a ground rod with their generators? For testing I can use the ground rod outside my shop, but in the field I would need to pound a 4' ground rod for each generator in use.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by blue_bullet

The instructions that came with my A-iPower Powered by Yamaha Inverter Generators read to use a ground rod for each generator, and my neighbor electrician advised to do the same. Do people on the forum use a ground rod with their generators? For testing I can use the ground rod outside my shop, but in the field I would need to pound a 4' ground rod for each generator in use.

The configuration of ground rod(s) depends on the local soil conditions. Here in upstate NY, the local utility requires 2 8' 5/8" copper coated rods fully driven 10' apart and connected with the appropriate sized wire for the size of the service. I'd get a bit tired of that at each camping stop...

With small 120V generators, the frame is used as the ground, and grounding to the earth provides little benefit since the generator neutral is not bonded. Technically, it doesn't have a neutral...

[Iowa Dave]

Hi Jon
Don’t let the copper lobby hear about us casual campers not wanting to drive sixteen feet of rod in the ground so we can have generator AC. They will be out buying politicians and changing camping laws all over the place faster than you can spell Anaconda.
Iowa Dave

[blue_bullet]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

Hi Jon
Don’t let the copper lobby hear about us casual campers not wanting to drive sixteen feet of rod in the ground so we can have generator AC. They will be out buying politicians and changing camping laws all over the place faster than you can spell Anaconda.
Iowa Dave

Instead, I am going to learn how to "bunny hop" into my Escape.

Only one ground rod was required in MT when I built my shop. Now it is two. They like to change codes annually. Many people here now have to build above-ground septics with a pump.

[blue_bullet]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

The configuration of ground rod(s) depends on the local soil conditions. Here in upstate NY, the local utility requires 2 8' 5/8" copper coated rods fully driven 10' apart and connected with the appropriate sized wire for the size of the service. I'd get a bit tired of that at each camping stop...

With small 120V generators, the frame is used as the ground, and grounding to the earth provides little benefit since the generator neutral is not bonded. Technically, it doesn't have a neutral...

Jon,

Are you saying a ground is recommended by the manufacturer as a CYA move?

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by blue_bullet

Jon,

Are you saying a ground is recommended by the manufacturer as a CYA move?

A generator powering an RV without any connection to a utility supply is considered a "Separately Derived System."

While it may be a bit technical, here is a quote from OSHA pointing out parts of the US NEC regarding separately derived systems (sorry it is so long but any time one deals with the National Electrical Code, it gets "interesting"):

"In regard to a separately derived system, please be advised that the National Electrical Code (National Fire Protection Association, NFPA 70) contains information useful in determining whether a portable or vehicle-mounted electric generator is being used as part of a separately derived system. Section 250-5(d) of this code contains the following explanation:

(d) Separately Derived Systems. A premises wiring system whose power is derived from generator, transformer, or converter windings and has no direct electrical connection, including a solidly connected grounded circuit conductor, to supply conductors originating in another system...

(FPN No. 1): An alternate alternating-current power source such as an on-site generator is not a separately derived system if the neutral is solidly interconnected to a service-supplied system neutral.

Thus, a separately derived system has no direct electrical connection to another system supplying power at the jobsite, while a non-separately derived system would be directly connected to another system supplying power to the site. A non-separately derived system at the jobsite would not need to have its neutral grounded, because the service-supplied system would already provide this function. Portable and vehicle-mounted generators are typically used to provide primary power for utilization equipment on construction sites and are normally separately derived systems for the purposes of OSHA's electrical standards for construction.

In the OSHA standards for portable vehicle-mounted generators, equipment grounding conductor bonding is mentioned in 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(B) and in 1926.404(f)(3)(ii)(C). Neutral conductor bonding is mentioned in 1926.404(f)(3)(iii).

The intent of 1926.404(f)(3)(iii) becomes very clear when one considers that the term "neutral" is used in its technical sense. A 120/240 volt system has a neutral and therefore must be bonded to the generator frame. A 2-wire 120 volt system has no neutral and therefore bonding is optional. Recall that neither side of a 2-wire derived system is a neutral and when one grounds either side, it becomes a grounded terminal or conductor, but it is not a neutral."

[ThomasG]

My Champion 2000w dual fuel generator running on propane will start my AC with a soft start without any problem. The running power for this generator on propane is 1440w below 1000 ft.

[Upfisk]

We live at 4500 ft elevation. We do not have a soft start on our Escape 19, 11000 BTU A.C.. Our Yamaha 2200 watt generator absolutely could not keep the A.C. running. We now carry a 100#, 3000 watt generator which has run the A.C. up to 8000 ft elevation with no problems. Myron in Alburquerque has installed a soft start and run his A.C. successfully with a Honda 2000. As expensive as soft starts are, you might consider installing one and using one of your Champion generators.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

My Champion 2000w dual fuel generator running on propane will start my AC with a soft start without any problem. The running power for this generator on propane is 1440w below 1000 ft.

Good reference, thank you!

This suggests the AC "running" demand is less than 1440 W.

Each of my gas-powered Champion 2000W units are rated to deliver 1700 Watts running. Champion told me to expect a 3.5% loss for every 1000 ft of elevation so at my 6000 ft home, my guess is 1615 starting and 1373 running watts.

Note to self- my 2000 W generator is a 1373 W generator at 6000 ft.

Net: my single gas unit at 6000 ft does not produce as much continuous power as yours on propane at sea level... so not clear if a soft-start would allow me to run the AC here and higher.

Do you know the "peak" or start-up rated output of yours on propane?

Originally Posted by Upfisk

We live at 4500 ft elevation. We do not have a soft start on our Escape 19, 11000 BTU A.C.. Our Yamaha 2200 watt generator absolutely could not keep the A.C. running. We now carry a 100#, 3000 watt generator which has run the A.C. up to 8000 ft elevation with no problems. Myron in Alburquerque has installed a soft start and run his A.C. successfully with a Honda 2000. As expensive as soft starts are, you might consider installing one and using one of your Champion generators.

Another good point of reference, thanks.

And somewhat discouraging as I guess your Yamaha puts out 1874/1561 W at your 4500 ft. if the altitude derating is the same as the Champion.

This suggests 1874 W is insufficient to start the AC as your "running" output should be higher than ThomasG's.

I guess what I'd really like to know is the actual demand of the AC unit, both at start-up and continously.

And just FYI, the attached chart is my estimated Champion output, assuming the specs and 3.5% loss/1K ft are accurate.

I'll try to figure out both the "peak" and "running" demand for my AC unit but my suspicion is my single Champion will not cut it at 8000 ft even with a soft-start. For now, I can run two in parallel and have a good shot at running my AC.

[kathytony1985]

Originally Posted by kathytony1985

I'm having trouble finding specific information to my situation here or on the Internet or at dometic's website. I need to know if a 2000 watt generator is able to start and run the Dometic penguin high efficiency 11,000 BTU AC. The specific generator that we have is the Firman w-2000i 2000 starting Watts 1600 running Watts. I did find that the running watts of the AC unit are less than 1600, but I'm unable to find information regarding if 2,000 watts can start that particular AC unit

So, having taken possession of our trailer yesterday, I am able to answer this question I posed some time ago. The answer is YES, we can run our AC WITHOUT a soft start on the Furman W-2000i purchased from Costco. YAY!!

[MyronL]

The Firman is an excellent generator but I suggest it is wise to curb your enthusiasm. My Dometic 11,000 also ran great off my 2350 WEN generator with the easy start and I was also thrilled, but -- that was only for about 15 to 20 minutes. Then the AC totally shut down and the WEN went into overload mode. Check the owners manual for your AC and if it is the same as mine, on page 3, Specifications, it says, minimum generator size 3.5KW which translates as 3500 watts. Or, run the ac off your generator for as long as you can, to confirm you don't have to do what I must do, which is buy a second WEN and for AC run them in tandem to get those 3500 watts.

[kathytony1985]

Originally Posted by MyronL

The Firman is an excellent generator but I suggest it is wise to curb your enthusiasm. My Dometic 11,000 also ran great off my 2350 WEN generator with the easy start and I was also thrilled, but -- that was only for about 15 to 20 minutes. Then the AC totally shut down and the WEN went into overload mode. Check the owners manual for your AC and if it is the same as mine, on page 3, Specifications, it says, minimum generator size 3.5KW which translates as 3500 watts. Or, run the ac off your generator for as long as you can, to confirm you don't have to do what I must do, which is buy a second WEN and for AC run them in tandem to get those 3500 watts.

I will check the manual when I get home. We did run it for about 25 minutes. And it was blowing nice, cold air

[Upfisk]

Hey, come up and visit the cool pines of Prescott. The White Spar Campground is just south of Prescott on Hwy 89 and it is a lovely spot. Elevation just under 6000 ft.

Then fire up your Firman 2000 and try to run your A.C.. Our Yamaha 2200 could start the A.C., but could not restart it. Since starting amps are much higher than running amps. Again, no problem starting the A.C. initially, but as the A.C. unit cools the trailer the A.C. starts shutting down, then restarting. That is where you'll find problems.

We live just south of Prescott, so if you do come up to White Spars, contact us and we'd like to visit with another Escape owner.

[kathytony1985]

Originally Posted by Upfisk

Hey, come up and visit the cool pines of Prescott. The White Spar Campground is just south of Prescott on Hwy 89 and it is a lovely spot. Elevation just under 6000 ft.

Then fire up your Firman 2000 and try to run your A.C.. Our Yamaha 2200 could start the A.C., but could not restart it. Since starting amps are much higher than running amps. Again, no problem starting the A.C. initially, but as the A.C. unit cools the trailer the A.C. starts shutting down, then restarting. That is where you'll find problems.

We live just south of Prescott, so if you do come up to White Spars, contact us and we'd like to visit with another Escape owner.

We just might take you up on that! We are thinking our first trip will be to Bisbee next month over the Columbus Day weekend. But there is always November.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by kathytony1985

So, having taken possession of our trailer yesterday, I am able to answer this question I posed some time ago. The answer is YES, we can run our AC WITHOUT a soft start on the Furman W-2000i purchased from Costco. YAY!!

Congrats! I'm sure this made you happy.

What was the altitude?

We were camping at 10,200 ft and found our 2000W Champion would not power a Keurig. As I understand, this brewer eats 1500 Watts, so the power loss is consistent with the altitude derating estimate I posted earlier.

I'm still debating whether I can find a "low weight" single generator solution to powering our AC where we typically camp (7000 to 10000 ft).

I think a 2200 W Generator under 60 lbs would be a great solution, but it's just not yet clear if this would power our AC, even with a soft start.

Even better would be a propane-powered generator but that has another "derating" penalty vs gas. I haven't looked too hard but I'm not aware of a 3KW generator that I want to lug around so I may have to accept running two 2KW units.

[Upfisk]

Originally Posted by kathytony1985

We just might take you up on that! We are thinking our first trip will be to Bisbee next month over the Columbus Day weekend. But there is always November.

Nov, finally might get to temps that you do not need an A.C., sooner is better for testing. Right now we have high 80s as the high and mid 50s as the low. You could even check your furnace sail switch the same day you check your A.C. unit.

And we'd love to see a 21NE in the "flesh"

[bborzell]

There might be hidden variables afoot here. We got our 2K Yamaha to start the 9K on our Airstream Basecamp about 60% of the time at 2,200 feet. Finally decided to pass on hauling it (the generator) around.

[kathytony1985]

Originally Posted by Shiny

Congrats! I'm sure this made you happy.

What was the altitude?

We were camping at 10,200 ft and found our 2000W Champion would not power a Keurig. As I understand, this brewer eats 1500 Watts, so the power loss is consistent with the altitude derating estimate I posted earlier.

I'm still debating whether I can find a "low weight" single generator solution to powering our AC where we typically camp (7000 to 10000 ft).

I think a 2200 W Generator under 60 lbs would be a great solution, but it's just not yet clear if this would power our AC, even with a soft start.

Even better would be a propane-powered generator but that has another "derating" penalty vs gas. I haven't looked too hard but I'm not aware of a 3KW generator that I want to lug around so I may have to accept running two 2KW units.

We just picked up the trailer so we're at home in Mesa Arizona which is only 1,240 ft above sea level. LOL
We're going through everything and checking it out to make sure everything works and there are no issues with any of the appliances and water, tanks, etc. I'm sure we'll have a very different experience at higher elevation. Everyone else seems to!

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by kathytony1985

...1,240 ft above sea level. ...

Thanks!