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Old 08-19-2014, 03:33 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by FMLNM View Post
Don't apologize...all suggestions/comments welcome! In this case, on one of the CPAP machines, we were able to get an indicator light on the CPAP transformer (?) but apparently not enough juice to actually turn the CPAP on....and the fit seemed ok and we repositioned it and jiggled it around to see if there was a problem with the fit. Perhaps there is a minimum voltage required before the machine can fire up...
I just looked on my outlet and it specifies a maximum of 8 amps. Does your machine draw more than that? As to devices that fit it, I used 12 v chargers for all computer stuff; the tv and an Endless Breeze by Fantastic. All of them work fine but all draw way less than 8 amps.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:40 PM   #42
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Indeed...that's the best route but how in the heck do you get the wiring from the back of the trailer to the front of the trailer without hanging exposed wiring from the walls/ceiling?!?!
We just looked at the back of the fuse box...holy cow! Unless there is some magic way to get in there it looks like you have to disconnect a whole lot of scary stuff to get expose the back of the fuse box. We are exploring a tap off the landing gear wiring now. Will post pictures and questions in a few minutes.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:51 PM   #43
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8 amps @ 12VDC = 96 watts; is there a sticker on the CPAP with a wattage? Most car-type 12V lighter sockets are rated at 10 or 15 amps........
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:54 PM   #44
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Fran and Dave, since you have an '08 5.0 it is probably alot like our 2010 5.0 in that it has a 2 way fridge. We have 110 outlets at the foot of the bed on each side. Can you go into the closet and cupboard and install a 12v outlet at the foot of the bed next to the 110 outlets. We have an overhead light under the cupboard on the passenger side. That would be a 12V source. You may be able to remove some of the trim over the bed opening to get to the closet on the drivers side. Any piece of trim with those buttons on them have screws underneath and can therefore be temporarily removed.

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Old 08-19-2014, 03:56 PM   #45
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Fran and Dave, since you have an '08 5.0 it is probably alot like our 2010 5.0 in that it has a 2 way fridge. We have 110 outlets at the foot of the bed on each side. Can you go into the closet and cupboard and install a 12v outlet at the foot of the bed next to the 110 outlets. We have an overhead light under the cupboard on the passenger side. That would be a 12V source. You may be able to remove some of the trim over the bed opening to get to the closet on the drivers side. Any piece of trim with those buttons on them have screws underneath and can therefore be temporarily removed.

Mark
Thanks - we tried to do exactly that - used the light by the door and went through the cabinet over the pantry, but the CPAP's apparently did not get enough juice to fire up that way. We were able to get a phone charger to work on the outlet we added that way, but not the CPAP machine.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:57 PM   #46
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8 amps @ 12VDC = 96 watts; is there a sticker on the CPAP with a wattage? Most car-type 12V lighter sockets are rated at 10 or 15 amps........
This is what the CPAP manual says:
"DC Power Consumption: 12 VDC, 6.67 A"
The other CPAP is 5 A.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:00 PM   #47
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I had 12V drops installed in all overhead cabinets for adding lighting; didn't think about it being a source for CPAP power at the time......but it could be for future build sheets filler-outers..........
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:57 PM   #48
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OK, here is the wiring for the landing gear...we'd like some help in sorting out where we should splice in 12v wiring for the CPAPs.

There is a 2 rocker switch panel for the landing gear which we unscrewed from the wall. One rocker for each landing gear. Behind the panel, for each rocker switch, there is a connector box with 4 terminals...2 terminals on top and 2 terminals below. Thus there are a total of 2 connector boxes and 8 terminals in all.
The top two terminals on each box are wired with a yellow and red and yellow and red in that order reading from the hatch opening towards the interior of the hatch.

The bottom two terminals are a little more complicated.
The first bottom terminal on the first box has a black wire going to the first bottom terminal on the 2nd box. Where that black wire goes into the 2nd box, it is joined by another black wire from inside the wall.
The 2nd bottom terminal on the first box, has a black and a red wire coming from inside the wall.
The 2nd bottom terminal on the 2nd box has a single black wire coming from inside the wall.
Note that the Red and Yellow pairs of wires seem to go to the top of the landing gear mechanism for each side of the trailer.

We THINK that the wires we want to splice into are the black & red pair coming into the first box, bottom, 2nd terminal.
I've attached drawings of the wiring (crude) and some photos.
I also included a photo of the back of our fuse box...we are really not anxious to try and undo all of that to get in and add a new line!
And thank you to everyone for your continued input and advice!!
Attached Thumbnails
back of converter box.jpg   Overview of wiring.jpg   View from above.jpg   view from underneath.jpg   Bottom Terminals.jpg  

Top Terminals.jpg  
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:04 PM   #49
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Because push-on spade terminals are used, you can pull them off and check for incoming 12V+ from the battery to the switches with a meter or test light. You may (or may not) have a local ground available, though. You'll want to measure between ground and the terminal you pull off.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:52 PM   #50
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They are Atwood units:
http://www.atwoodmobile.com/manuals/...%203.14.08.pdf

The wiring colors match the Atwood direct drive wires.

I *think* you have the correct wires. To at least partly verify this:
1) Voltage between the 2 you want should be 12V (bottom 2 - box 1)
2) Voltage between the corresponding ones on the other box should also be 12V (bottom 2 - box 2) and the polarity should be the same
3) Look at the front of the fuse box - you should have 1 or 2 fuses for the jacks.
IF 1 Remove it, voltages in steps 1 and 2 above should be 0
IF 2 - remove 1 - one set of voltages should be 0, the other should be 12, replace 1 and remove the other - the voltages should now be 12 and 0.

This is not a complete test but if it checks out I would go for it.

I suggest you plug the outlet directly to the spades (remove from switch noting which goes where) and see if the CPAP works.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by jamman View Post
They are Atwood units:
http://www.atwoodmobile.com/manuals/...%203.14.08.pdf

The wiring colors match the Atwood direct drive wires.

I *think* you have the correct wires. To at least partly verify this:
1) Voltage between the 2 you want should be 12V (bottom 2 - box 1)
2) Voltage between the corresponding ones on the other box should also be 12V (bottom 2 - box 2) and the polarity should be the same
3) Look at the front of the fuse box - you should have 1 or 2 fuses for the jacks.
IF 1 Remove it, voltages in steps 1 and 2 above should be 0
IF 2 - remove 1 - one set of voltages should be 0, the other should be 12, replace 1 and remove the other - the voltages should now be 12 and 0.

This is not a complete test but if it checks out I would go for it.

I suggest you plug the outlet directly to the spades (remove from switch noting which goes where) and see if the CPAP works.
Thanks - we'll work through this probably on Thursday...heading up to the top of Sandia Crest tomorrow to do our USFS volunteer thing....
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:56 PM   #52
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We just looked at the back of the fuse box...holy cow! Unless there is some magic way to get in there it looks like you have to disconnect a whole lot of scary stuff to get expose the back of the fuse box. We are exploring a tap off the landing gear wiring now. Will post pictures and questions in a few minutes.

Really easy to access 12 volt circuits on my panel. If your's is the same as the 19, take off the front cover and there they are. There are several unused spaces. From the back, push in and connect the wire you want to power up, put in a fuse of the correct size and you have a dedicated circuit, properly fused.

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Old 08-20-2014, 02:26 AM   #53
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As was stated earlier in the thread, voltage drop issues are frequently from wire size or connection issues.

I saw in post #30 of this thread that you had replaced the snap on connectors with wire nuts. That's not a good connection either. They tend to be worse in a mobile installation since they can work loose. For good connections try this advice Marine Wire Termination Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com.

As for wire size, 14g may not be big enough. For example, a 14g wire with a load of 6.67 amps and a total length of 20 feet (10 from battery to outlet and 10 back) will loose approximately half a volt. As the batteries get used this becomes a bigger problem. A 10g wire will loose about a fifth of a volt in the same scenario. As you can see, wire size makes a huge difference.

I recommend you take the advice from several people and run a dedicated circuit from the fuse box. Ron suggested a way to do that in his last post.

Measure how long a wire you need (for the round trip), find an online voltage drop calculator and put the numbers in. Decide how big a drop you can tolerate. I suggest 5% is too much and you might want to try for 2% or 3% (or less if your machine is finicky about voltage). That will tell you how big a wire you need.

A marine supply store should be able to sell you some high quality wire, connectors, and a fuse. The folks who sell it by the foot may be a better deal than a big spool of the stuff. The marine stuff is usually of better quality than the average auto parts store will carry. That equates to better performance and more corrosion resistance. Since a long term source of problems is corrosion at the connections this will help keep it trouble free for a long time.
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Old 08-20-2014, 07:22 AM   #54
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Really easy to access 12 volt circuits on my panel. If your's is the same as the 19, take off the front cover and there they are. There are several unused spaces. From the back, push in and connect the wire you want to power up, put in a fuse of the correct size and you have a dedicated circuit, properly fused.

Ron
Thanks Ron - we will examine our fuse box and see if there is a way to take off the front panel. We were leery of taking too much stuff apart! If we can get in there and run a dedicated line that would be a big help...we think we have a route for running the wiring to the loft. Probably can't get to it till tomorrow....
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:32 AM   #55
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The wire to the fridge in my 19 is 10 gauge. It is easily accessible from the outside vent opening. This wire connects to a terminal block on the fridge but on mine the block was out of reach. )
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:44 AM   #56
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Myron,
Why did you not use one of these to join your wires?
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:58 AM   #57
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I looked around but could not find one for 10 gauge and the job would not wait.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:09 AM   #58
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Myron,
Why did you not use one of these to join your wires?
We initially used those on our wiring project and found that the voltage dropped more with them than with the screw cap connections so we replaced them with the crew cap...still not enough but at least the phone charger works now.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:52 AM   #59
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Myron,
Why did you not use one of these to join your wires?
I have rewired several cars and Hot Rods and these kind of connectors go in the garbage. These connectors are designed to pierce the insulation, hopefully make contact with the conductor without severing some of the strands on the main circuit. Use the connectors that WestEnder recommends. Add extra shrink tubing to protect the connection - there is a moisture resistant type available. If you are unsure about adding a circuit to your fuse panel get a professional to do that part. You can still run the circuits. Regarding the connections at the landing gear I believe that my trailer has in line fuses a that location. You should be able to tap into the incoming lead at the fuse. Good luck.

PS. If you tap into a hot circuit other than at your fuse panel be sure to add an in line fuse.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:13 AM   #60
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PS. If you tap into a hot circuit other than at your fuse panel be sure to add an in line fuse.
This is only needed if the branch circuit you add is of a smaller conductor size, otherwise the fuse at the panel will provide adequate protection.

I do use those connectors that Jim linked to, only for really low amperage draws, and always use dielectric grease, and tape the connection after. I also only use them inside, in protected areas.

A proper soldered joint covered with a heat shrink can't be beaten though.
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