Available space under 21C seats for electrical

[hugh]

Hi Everyone!


I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Thanks to all of you who have made this forum such an invaluable source of information!


I've been searching (without any luck so far) to find information on the dimensions of the available space under the 21C bench seats, with the Escape installed standard electrical components (not U-shaped dinette, single 12V lead acid, etc).



The reason I'm trying to figure this out before I receive the trailer, is that I'd like to install my own LifePO4 battery bank, inverter, charge controller(s), etc. and am trying to figure out where everything might fit under the bench seats. If it looks like I can manage preserve a decent amount of open space under one of the seats post install, I'd like to order an external access door for that seat.


Does anyone have any pictures and/or measurements of the available space under the seats? I'm interested in overall dimensions of the storage area (LxWxH), but also how much space might be available around major components like the WFCO power center and water pump.


Thanks!

[Centex]

I think you'll find the dinette dimensions for the 21C coincide with those of the 5.0.

With that in mind, here's a basic massing diagram for my 2021 5.0 as delivered with straight bench seating, the standard base single 12v FLA battery, removable shore-power cord, no inverter or any other electrical / solar options. I chose this configuration as a 'clean-slate' starting point for my own electrical / solar mods.

Note that the area around the WFCO power center is cluttered with the battery disconnect switch, the backside of the removable shore-power cord outlet, and associated wiring, none which is indicated on the diagram.

The wheel well indicated on the passenger side is the back-edge of that encroachment, curved and only about 5" high above the floor.

Sorry, I don't have pics of the unmodified areas, my mods underway are now well-advanced in these areas.

Hope that helps, Have Fun!

[Ron in BC]

I think the bottom line is that there's lot's of room there for the items you mentioned.

These photos were taken in the middle of installing a new battery box to hold two 12 volt batteries and build a containment box for the power cord. No more removable cords for me but if you had one your batteries could fit in that location and be nice and close to the converter and out of the way leaving the rest of area usable for storage.

The white box is the old battery box. i decided not to use it.

Ron

[cpaharley2008]

Ron,
So your new set up is not vented to outside?

[Centex]

IME there's certainly plenty of room for all of the components you mention, but the devilish detail is in the arrangement of those components, particularly in consideration of

• lengths of cable-run for high-amp DC circuits
• accessibility for installation, use, and maintenance
• weight distribution if installing a large battery array, even LFP

Your equipment and mods choices may vary of course, but personally I'm glad I elected to not have ETI install any exterior access hatch (and I'm also glad I had ETI delete the standard passenger-side exterior 120V outlet which encroaches on the under bench space). Those choices left me freedom to design my electrical / solar mods with minimal constraint and find, for me, what I think will the best balance between storage and utility component spaces.

Both exterior hatches (of whatever size) and exterior outlets can be added at whatever locations may be desired.

YMMV of course, attached my modified massing diagram just FYI, Have Fun!

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Ron,
So your new set up is not vented to outside?

Yes, it is vented using the same vent and drain as the original set-up.

Ron

[hugh]

Centex and Ron,

Thanks for the pics and info. It does seem like there's quite a bit of space both on the passenger and drivers side. I looks like I might even be able to squeeze the inverter and LifePO4 cells on the drivers side, and leave the passenger side open. But there'd be even more room to work with if I just moved everything to the passenger side.

Centex, it looks like you ended up installing everything on the passenger side. Did you have Escape install the power center on the passenger side to begin with, or did you move it yourself? If you moved it, what did you do with the existing hole?

Your points about cable run lengths and weight distribution are well taken. I've actually been debating about building a 24v system as it would give me more placement flexibility (4x longer cable runs at same voltage drop). That might even allow me to split things between the bed and dinette area, should I decide to build a ginormous (and heavy) battery bank in the future.

FWIW, my current plan is to install a Victron Multiplus 3000VA, connected to a battery bank of eight 304Ah EVE LifePo4 cells. Those cells have fairly energy density, and will give me ~7.5KW/hr, with only 100lbs of battery and 1200 cubic inches. Should also make for a nice fireworks show, should everything go up in smoke.

[JeffreyG]

I reworked the DS dinette in my E-19 to fit two Li batteries and all of the controllers in there. Pictures are in post number 43 in this thread:


https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post400933


The invertor is in the PS dinette, which is where ETI put it. There's no room for that on the DS.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by hugh

Centex, it looks like you ended up installing everything on the passenger side. Did you have Escape install the power center on the passenger side to begin with, or did you move it yourself? If you moved it, what did you do with the existing hole?

• I did not ask ETI to alter any of their default component locations, they were as shown in my first posted "OE massing diagram".
• I removed / abandoned the OE WFCO Power Center in favor of a xantrex Freedom XC-2000 (all-in-one converter / charger / inverter / transfer switch) with Progressive Dynamics stand-alone AC and DC breaker / fuse / distribution panels.
• The face of the driver side bench has been completely replaced, sans cutouts, with new matching maple paneling purchased from ETI (shipped inside my trailer when it was delivered).

My schematic plan is attached FYI (this will be updated to reflect the final as-built configuration). The project is still in progress, all will be documented (with pics) in my modifications thread after everything is completed and functioning.

Have Fun (I am)!

[John in Santa Cruz]

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries do not need any ventilation.

I have the U bench, and am in the process of installing and rewiring for 2 x LFP 12V 206AH SOK Batteries. I have determined they easily fit right here...



(thats just a temporary 'sitting there, hooked up with the old wires' setup.)

I will be cutting some 2" aluminum angle into 4 brackets, screwed to the floor so the batteries can't shift, and using a nylon strap so they can't 'jump' out either.

I will be using the center bench space to mount a 16x24" plywood board with my new solar controller, solar panel cutoff switch, 100A fuses, and power distribution busses, with room for more stuff. Current working plans are something like this...



when all done, I should have 5000+ watt*hours of usable power, '360 watts' (I expect 200ish watts actual typically).

[splitting_lanes]

I'm hoping to be able to fit something like this into our U shaped dinette on our soon to be 5.0 without giving up too much space do to it’s unusual size:

https://www.amazon.com/Ampere-Time-P...cx_mr_hp_atf_m

Note that this particular battery needs a low temperature cutoff in the charging circuit or to not be used in an environment below freezing

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by splitting_lanes

I'm hoping to be able to fit something like this into our U shaped dinette on our soon to be 5.0 without giving up too much space do to it’s unusual size:

https://www.amazon.com/Ampere-Time-P...cx_mr_hp_atf_m

Note that this particular battery needs a low temperature cutoff in the charging circuit or to not be used in an environment below freezing

thats a big battery but if you remove the battery box (mine was held with 8 or 12 squarer head screws into the floor), it should fit. its also nearly 70 lbs, so will be good wrestle to get it in place.

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

thats a big battery but if you remove the battery box (mine was held with 8 or 12 squarer head screws into the floor), it should fit. its also nearly 70 lbs, so will be good wrestle to get it in place.

Good to hear it should fit. The SOKs you’re installing are on my short list too, I *think* one might be enough to power an inverter, as they are rated for 150amps for 30 seconds, if memory serves correct.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by splitting_lanes

Good to hear it should fit. The SOKs you’re installing are on my short list too, I *think* one might be enough to power an inverter, as they are rated for 150amps for 30 seconds, if memory serves correct.

I didn't see that specification, just that the BMS limits it to 100A output (and 50A charge). I have two in parallel so thats 200A output, 100A charge.

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

I didn't see that specification, just that the BMS limits it to 100A output (and 50A charge). I have two in parallel so thats 200A output, 100A charge.

It’s listed as 130amp max continues discharge current, with a 3 second peak of 200amps

https://www.us.sokbattery.com/produc...e-battery-pack

Your two should output 260A, and the charge has been raised to 70A max, 40A recommended per battery.

Will one fit in the stock battery box?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by splitting_lanes

It’s listed as 130amp max continues discharge current, with a 3 second peak of 200amps

https://www.us.sokbattery.com/produc...e-battery-pack

Your two should output 260A, and the charge has been raised to 70A max, 40A recommended per battery.

Will one fit in the stock battery box?

ah, huh on the specs, you're right, and I thought I'd looked at all those before.

edit: AAHHH, I was looking at /this/ page, https://www.sokbattery.com/products/...e-battery-pack which has different numbers than the other page, https://www.us.sokbattery.com/produc...e-battery-pack
and yet more numbers on this 'spec sheet', https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_Q5...t-mBvVnUl/view

fun fun.


I think its just a little bit too tall for the batt box. but now i'm not sure. the terminals are 12.3" high... OTOH, the lid doesn't need to seal, so the wood bar across it should work OK, there's plenty of extra threads on the tiedown clamps.
I might find some wood or foam blocks to space the sides so the battery can't bang around in the box.

[BobG]

Hugh, Escape has the Ambassador Plan. You can ask them for contact info of someone living near you who has a trailer like you want. Take your tape measure with you.
Double check the weight of the batteries. 100 lbs seems light for 7.5kwh.
If you go with a 24 volt system you will save on wire, solar controllers and other things but pay for other things such as a 24-12 converter for your DC panel and a 24-12 converter for the emergency brake switch. You may want to connect it to the internet so you can access it with your computer through Victron's VRM Portal. Also, how will you set up charging while towing? Are you thinking solar for now or in the future? If so, where are you going to place the solar controllers and solar panel disconnect switches.



Also, if you are going with Victron, then you might want their 500amp smart shunt and Cerbo GX along with the Touch 50 or Touch 70 screen. You will need busbars, smart dongle and MK3 for adjusting Multiplus settings. Don't forget the battery switches and fuses. The fuse for the MultiPlus is not small. It requires a "T" fuse of the appropriate size and if you are going 12 volt then you might need 2 of them because you will need to double up the 1/0 cables.
You can download the Multiplus manual to read requirements for cabling and fusing.
You will want to figure out how you want to configure the the AC also. Do you want a shore power AC disconnect switch? Do you need an EMS if you have the MultiPlus?

Depending on what you do, I think you will have trouble fitting all that in one dinette bench. The both the 12 volt and the 24 volt MultiPlus's charger is 70 amps. 70 amps at 24 volts is double the energy of 70 amps at 12 volts. Maybe this isn't important.

[hugh]

Bob, thanks for the response!

Originally Posted by BobG

Hugh, Escape has the Ambassador Plan. You can ask them for contact info of someone living near you who has a trailer like you want. Take your tape measure with you.

Yeah, silly me, I actually had a visit with an ambassador, but felt a bit uncomfortable spending too much time inside their trailer in the middle of the Omicron wave. (I wasn't worried about me, but would hate to infect someone else!) In hindsight, I wish I'd bothered to take some measurements.

Originally Posted by BobG

Double check the weight of the batteries. 100 lbs seems light for 7.5kwh.

They are indeed light, which is one of the reasons I'm hoping to use them! Each of the 304AH cells is around 5.5kg. That's just the cell weight, so bus bars, BMS, box, etc. will add some additional weight. But the battery bank should end up being quite a bit lighter (and cheaper) than using pre-built batteries.

Originally Posted by BobG

If you go with a 24 volt system you will save on wire, solar controllers and other things but pay for other things such as a 24-12 converter for your DC panel and a 24-12 converter for the emergency brake switch. You may want to connect it to the internet so you can access it with your computer through Victron's VRM Portal. Also, how will you set up charging while towing? Are you thinking solar for now or in the future? If so, where are you going to place the solar controllers and solar panel disconnect switches.

For charging while towing, I was considering an Orion-Tr 12V/24V charger. (If I go with 12V, I'd probably go with their 12V/12V charger)

Solar, I'm still learning about. My current plan is to order both of the ETI installed panels, as it seems like the best way to avoid having to drill (or glue). The Escape provided charge controller seems "adequate" for a 12V system, but would need to be replaced for a 24V system. For a 24V system, my assumption is that I'd also need to rewire the panels into series, as there don't seem to be many good "step up" MPPT chargers out there. It seems the downside of series wired panels is that if either of the panels is shaded, I'd lose the total output from both panels. Plus, options for a free-standing / foldable panels with enough voltage to charge a 24v battery bank are more limited.

Solar may actually be the thing that tips my the decision in favor of a 12V system.

Originally Posted by BobG

Also, if you are going with Victron, then you might want their 500amp smart shunt and Cerbo GX along with the Touch 50 or Touch 70 screen. You will need busbars, smart dongle and MK3 for adjusting Multiplus settings.

I'm definitely going to add the smart shunt (or the BMV-712). The Cerbo GX and touch screen look really nice. I haven't decided if I want to go that route, or maybe try building a solution with the Venus software on a Raspberry Pi.

Originally Posted by BobG

Don't forget the battery switches and fuses. The fuse for the MultiPlus is not small. It requires a "T" fuse of the appropriate size and if you are going 12 volt then you might need 2 of them because you will need to double up the 1/0 cables.
You can download the Multiplus manual to read requirements for cabling and fusing.
You will want to figure out how you want to configure the the AC also. Do you want a shore power AC disconnect switch? Do you need an EMS if you have the MultiPlus?

Depending on what you do, I think you will have trouble fitting all that in one dinette bench. The both the 12 volt and the 24 volt MultiPlus's charger is 70 amps. 70 amps at 24 volts is double the energy of 70 amps at 12 volts. Maybe this isn't important.

I will double check, but I believe the 12V Multiplus has a 120A charger, vs 70A on the 24V unit. 120A@12V is still not as much power as 70A@24V, but it's closer.

Good point that the odds and ends will start adding up in terms of space. It sounds like it would be end up being a tight fit, at best, on the drivers side. Seems more feasible on the passenger side, but I'm not sure I want to go to that much trouble to move things around.

Thanks for your thoughts.. It's good food for thought on this decision.

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

ah, huh on the specs, you're right, and I thought I'd looked at all those before.

I think its just a little bit too tall for the batt box. but now i'm not sure. the terminals are 12.3" high... OTOH, the lid doesn't need to seal, so the wood bar across it should work OK, there's plenty of extra threads on the tiedown clamps.
I might find some wood or foam blocks to space the sides so the battery can't bang around in the box.

Thanks John. Now I think one of these is the way to go.

[BobG]

Hugh, you are correct that if you wired the ETI gopower dometic 190 watt panels in series and were a 24 volt system you would loose both panels if one was shadowed because you would not have enough volts (> 32?). However, most panels have at least 2 bypass diodes so if you shaded cells on just one diode circuit of one panel, you would have approximately 1 1/2 panels working.



If you go with 12 volt system and the panels are wired in series then you could have a situation where half of one panel is shaded. In this case the output from the other half would still contribute assuming the shaded cells are confined to one bypass diode This results in about 1 1/2 panels contributing. If you wire the panels in parallel, I think you might loose an entire panel if any part of it is shaded.
Check this carefully before deciding on series or parallel.

Here is an easy explanation of how solar panel diodes may affect what you decide. I do not know if the ETI solar panels have 2 bypass diodes but they probably do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x_6OLdAods&t=29s