Battery/Power Trouble Shooting

[DT6]

Just picked up our 21C. Escape installed two 100Ah Lithium batteries in parallel that we purchased and brought with us [As an aside, they can't do this on the initial delivery when you provide your own, but because we had to return to the factory from across the border multiple times, they could] The "delivery from hell" post will have to come later.

Our electrical package is the new Victron based "Lithium Ready" package that Escape has now switched to, with their stock GoPower Inverter. We have two 190W solar panels.

For the first few days the batteries seemed to perform well with the exception being that the inverter shut off whenever I tried to run my toaster (750W model). I assumed this might be caused by the toaster. Even though we used it in our 19 w/o issue, it has been banged around a bit while we waited for the 21. Tuesday, while boon docking and not plugged in, we also had a complete power shutdown when the water pump came on. Noticed that one parallel (positive) connection was loose, so I tightened the nut. This seemed to solve the issue with the water pump, but the inverter issue with the toaster persists.

To trouble shoot, I reinstalled the Interstate Lead-Acid battery yesterday and was able to get the toaster to run off the inverter (so the toaster is okay). Then I connected each Lithium battery to the trailer, individually to test each separately, and they were able to run the toaster from the inverter. I left the last Lithium batter connected, shut off the battery disconnect switch and left it for the night.

Today I went out and had the same problem with the Lithium battery in that the toaster seemed to trip something and shut off the inverter. So I reconnected the Lead-Acid battery and the toaster worked, but this time the Lithiums would not run the toaster.

I'm not much of an expert on these things. I am in contact with the battery manufacturer who wants me to connect each battery directly to the inverter and test each one with the toaster. That looks like I could do that, but I'm waiting for Escape to call me back so I can be sure that there is not anything special about disconnecting the positive cable which is inside some type of shield (I assume to prevent accidental shorts).

Has anyone seen anything like this and are there any additional trouble shooting steps you might recommend, and readings from the Victron display or phone app that I need to look for?

Thanks!

[rubicon327]

This sounds pretty odd. What battery voltage does the Victron battery monitor show when the lead acid battery is connected and when the lithium(s) are connected? Or what are the voltages when you put a multi-meter across each of them?

[alanmalk]

Odd is a good description. A pair of lithiums ought to run a 750 watt load through an inverter without issue. Troubleshooting will take some effort.

Can you tell us the specifications of the lithium batteries? AH capacity, Maximum continuous discharge current, for starters.

Also, unloaded voltage on each battery when disconnected.

Also, voltage at the input of the inverter when loaded with the toaster, hopefully before it shuts off.

Are you sure the two lithium batteries are in parallel when connected?

Sorry for all the questions but unusual nature of this problem requires some sleuthing.

[RangerMan]

Had a somewhat similar problem some time back. Inverter was shutting down when running the coffee maker. Voltage drop was excessive.

Replaced the ETI installed inverter cables and the battery series connection cable with 2/0 cables and all is well.

I have 2 6v Trojan AGM's

[cpaharley2008]

Reminds of the saying, "the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to clog up....."

[DT6]

I've been trying to come up with a repeatable process and also researching the answers to the questions folks are asking to help clarify the issue. So here goes:

1. Battery is the Ampere Time 12V 100Ah Lithium Battery with Self-Heating Low Temperature Charging (https://www.amperetime.com/collectio...-charging-20-c)
2. Battery ratings:
- 280A Max Discharge Current at 5 seconds
- 100A Max Continuous Charge / Discharge Current
- Support Max 1280W Load Power
3. Victron Display readings (from the small Victron Display in the trailer as I scroll through the display):
- Lithium 1: 13.35V (also reading when disconnected); 20.4A; 28W; 0.0Ah; 100%; INF
- Lithium 2: 13.51V (also reading when disconnected); 20.2A; 27W; 0.0Ah; 100%; INF

The problem again is that when I try my 750W toaster it seems to trip the Inverter, shutting it down. One suggestion was to measure voltage at the input of the inverter when loaded with the toaster. Not sure how to do that, but will try. When it is not working, just engaging the toaster lever shuts off the inverter instantly.

When I reinstall the Interstate Lead/Acid battery, the Inverter works fine. Once it is working again (I let the toaster go for about 5 sec or so to ensure it is running) I then turn off the battery disconnect and then try each of the Lithium batteries separately.

Initially they seem to run the inverter with the toaster fine (again I'm running it for 5 sec or so). But after some time, 15 to 30 minutes of waiting around and then trying again (this morning) the toaster trips the Inverter and I have to install the Interstate to get it to work again.

Sometimes when it is not working, I hear a loud beeping sound from the inverter. I had trouble locating the sound at first, but it is the inverter as one of the three "green" lights near the switch is red (the power indicator).

I'm charging the 13.34V Lithium battery so that it is over 13.4V as recommended by the manufacturer (they referred to this as voltage balancing the batteries) and it is now at 13.55V.

I have not re-connected them in parallel, but they were correctly connected in parallel while at Escape.

The battery manufacturer has only suggested I try each battery separately, which I have done but I don't seem to be any closer to understanding why it runs okay for a bit, then it does not. I'm wondering if I'm missing some secret Victron setting or something. I have the Victron bluetooth app if there is any information I can pull from that, please let me know.

If there are more specific questions, I'm always available by phone (Pacific time zone) at 571-635-9014 (I won't take any more of anyone's time than they are willing to share)

Suggestions/thoughts?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by DT6

The problem again is that when I try my 750W toaster it seems to trip the Inverter, shutting it down. One suggestion was to measure voltage at the input of the inverter when loaded with the toaster. Not sure how to do that, but will try.

Set multi-meter for voltage measurement and put leads across the positive and negative lugs on the back of the inverter while under load. It doesn’t matter what your battery voltage is if you have high resistance somewhere....bad connection, undersized wiring, etc. what matters is the inverter input voltage.

Originally Posted by DT6

Sometimes when it is not working, I hear a loud beeping sound from the inverter. I had trouble locating the sound at first, but it is the inverter as one of the three "green" lights near the switch is red (the power indicator).

You should have three LED indicators. Would be nice to know which light is going red. If it’s the one with the small battery symbol it means a low (or high) voltage condition. If it’s the triangle with exclamation point it could mean different things if it is solid red or blinking red.

On an inverter system big DC wiring is the name of the game. Escape has been known to use marginal inverter wiring. See RangerMan’s comment above. What size and how long are your wires from battery to inverter? For context I have short 4/0 wiring between my batteries and a 2000W Xantrex inverter/charger. Hardly any voltage drop.

[DT6]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Set multi-meter for voltage measurement and put leads across the positive and negative lugs on the back of the inverter while under load. It doesn’t matter what your battery voltage is if you have high resistance somewhere....bad connection, undersized wiring, etc. what matters is the inverter input voltage.



You should have three LED indicators. Would be nice to know which light is going red. If it’s the one with the small battery symbol it means a low (or high) voltage condition. If it’s the triangle with exclamation point it could mean different things if it is solid red or blinking red.

On an inverter system big DC wiring is the name of the game. Escape has been known to use marginal inverter wiring. See RangerMan’s comment above. What size and how long are your wires from battery to inverter? For context I have short 4/0 wiring between my batteries and a 2000W Xantrex inverter/charger. Hardly any voltage drop.

I'll be trying to do the multimeter test on the inverter later today. I just returned from the RV repair shop where they were completing some things Escape failed to compete during construction of the trailer.

While there, they tested both Lithium batteries and told me they tested just fine. While they were working on other parts of the trailer, I tried to come up with a repeatable process where when I do "X", then "Y" (the inverter shutting of) will always happen, but I cannot thus far. I was able to get the inverter to beep when I tried the toaster, not consistently, but the light that is blinking red is the one next to the big single triangle symbol. The manual says it is either a low or over voltage situation. I assume under voltage. The red light is blinking but I can't tell if it is slow or fast but if I had to guess I'd say slow, which means under voltage if I interpret the GoPower Inverter manual correctly.

The only thing I know for sure is that when the inverter shuts off, I have to install the battery cables on the Interstate Lead/Acid to get it to work again. Then I can switch back to the Lithiums for a bit. Will try the multimeter this afternoon.

[alanmalk]

Take a helper with you as the under-voltage event might be just a second or two.


You put the multimeter connections (leads) as close to the inverter as possible, right on the wire to inverter connection if you can. Then have the helper operate the toaster. Let us know the voltage before toasting and while toasting when the unit turns off.

[DT6]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

Take a helper with you as the under-voltage event might be just a second or two.


You put the multimeter connections (leads) as close to the inverter as possible, right on the wire to inverter connection if you can. Then have the helper operate the toaster. Let us know the voltage before toasting and while toasting when the unit turns off.

Thanks. I will try. I had a friend recommend a non-digital multimeter. He said the digital readouts are slower and I may not notice anything, whereas I could see the needle move in an analog version. I'm going to have to go out and buy one.

I did have the batteries checked at Camping World today and they said they tested fine.

Additionally, the manual states that it is best to charge both batteries above 13.4V before connecting in parallel. I did not do that before we installed them at the factory, but I only had them for two days before the installation (they actually showed up via UPS the night before we drove up to Chilliwack). They are both now charged individually well above 13.4V.

Finally - I just got a note back from the battery manufacturer (Ampertime). Here is what they said:

"I shared your case to the technical team, they suggested that you use the charger to fully charged each battery individually fisrst, then put them aside for half an hour to test the resting voltage to ensure full, and then parallel equalization 12 hours, after that connect them with the inverter and the toaster, to see if the inverter still appears to shut down the situation?
The normal situation will not occur that, unless there is a loose connection, resulting in a load to shut down the inverter, please help check to see if there is any problem with the connection, so far your inverter is good."

I will connect them in parallel in the morning and they will have the day to charge together while I go find an analog meter to use.

Thanks for the help! I'm not great with electricity, but this is really strange and I cannot help but think the evidence keeps pointing back at the batteries, maybe a bad BMS?

[splitting_lanes]

I think even a single AmpereTime battery could power that toaster. Rubicon has given you great guidance above that will help you trace out and find or eliminate a wiring fault ( or maybe an inverter issue).

Electrical problems can be aggravating to solve. Best to find out what’s ok, to lead you to what’s not.

One more edit: After the test of the voltage at the inverter under load, check the voltage on the battery terminals under load to see if the drop is in the wiring, or inside the batteries.

[alanmalk]

Good advice. But you may have found out this already - analog voltmeters are not to be found at your local big box store.


This is what you are looking for:
https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Analo...s%2C149&sr=1-1


Use the meter to observe a big dip below 10 volts. Actual values really don't matter, just the drop when the toaster is turned on.


Good luck.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by DT6

...
, maybe a bad BMS?

Not impossible, but with a 5 second rating above 200 amps, one battery should be able to run an inverter-toaster combo nicely for at least 5 seconds. And with 2 batteries in parallel, the odds of both being defective are very small - but still not impossible. Your analog meter should be handy to check this out.



After checking out the voltage drop at the inverter terminals, check for voltage drop at the battery terminals. If a big drop to below 10 volts (perhaps even to 0) then we can suspect the BMS.


Its a matter of elimination, with lots of possibilities.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

After checking out the voltage drop at the inverter terminals, check for voltage drop at the battery terminals. If a big drop to below 10 volts (perhaps even to 0) then we can suspect the BMS.

If it’s the case of a huge voltage drop at the batteries or bad BMS shutting down output wouldn’t he have other issues (dim/flickering lights, etc) or lose DC power to the entire trailer altogether? It doesn’t sound like this is happening (except for the time he had a total shutdown when the pump ran which he attributed to a loose battery connection).

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

If it’s the case of a huge voltage drop at the batteries or bad BMS shutting down output wouldn’t he have other issues (dim/flickering lights, etc) or lose DC power to the entire trailer altogether? It doesn’t sound like this is happening (except for the time he had a total shutdown when the pump ran which he attributed to a loose battery connection).

Absolutely. Lights going dim would be a good indication of various problems including a bad BMS.

So, DT6, you don't need a $10 voltmeter or helper for this. Connect the batteries in the standard configuration. Then turn on a few lights where you can see them easily. Now make toast. Did the lights flicker/dim significantly?

And while you're playing with batteries do some simple observations. What is the wire size of the short connecting wires between batteries? Numbers like "6GA" or even "as big as the wires connecting the inverter" will be useful at some point. Also, examine each connector for a good crimp. Any frayed wires? Can the connectors withstand a good tug by hand? They shouldn't ever feel loose or look frayed or toasted.

[DT6]

I will certainly watch the lights for any flicker next time, and I'll use my digital multimeter anyway just to see if I can get a reading. Right now I'm in the middle of following the battery manufacturers instructions which was to charge each battery separately which I completed last night (one is 13.71V the other is 13.65V). Then they want me to connect in parallel and charge for at least 12 hours. This will be complete by tomorrow at noon (PST) and is supposed to balance the batteries I believe. Then they want me to see if I can run the toaster after that.

Most of the wiring I am seeing is 8GA I believe. The main battery terminals are much thicker than the 8GA wire I'm seeing being run elsewhere.

I will check the voltage on each again prior to trying this, then report my findings.

I'm trying to attach an image of the inverter here in case that will help but I don't recall how I did that on a Mac.

[IMG]Documents\Inverter1.jpg[/IMG]

[DT6]

After following the battery manufacturers recommendation, I charged each battery separately for 8 hours then tougher in parallel for 12 hours. This afternoon I disconnected the cables and check the voltage on each battery and it as 13.71V for each one, which is what I think the manufacturer was after in terms of getting them "balanced".

Unfortunately, I did not know to check the voltage of each battery before the initial hookup. They went straight from the shipping box into the trailer (about 7 days after I placed the order for them), so it is entirely possible the voltages for each were different enough to cause a problem.

I have been able to run the 750W toaster without issue so far today. No light flickers and no inverter shut down. I'm going to keep running it at different times this week, will leave the inverter on and at times will cycle it by turning it on/off, and I'll give the batteries a nightly workout to simulate our CPAP machines.

I just need to use up about 60Ah overnight to simulate their draw. Most mornings I have a bagel and cream cheese with coffee, kind of my morning zen routine. For the rest of the week I'm going to take care of all that in the trailer, again to simulate as close as I can, a typical camping day/night.

I'll report back this weekend or sooner if the problem happens again before then. I cannot say how much I appreciate everyone's help with this!

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by DT6

After following the battery manufacturers recommendation, I charged each battery separately for 8 hours then tougher in parallel for 12 hours. This afternoon I disconnected the cables and check the voltage on each battery and it as 13.71V for each one, which is what I think the manufacturer was after in terms of getting them "balanced".

Unfortunately, I did not know to check the voltage of each battery before the initial hookup. They went straight from the shipping box into the trailer (about 7 days after I placed the order for them), so it is entirely possible the voltages for each were different enough to cause a problem.

I have been able to run the 750W toaster without issue so far today. No light flickers and no inverter shut down. I'm going to keep running it at different times this week, will leave the inverter on and at times will cycle it by turning it on/off, and I'll give the batteries a nightly workout to simulate our CPAP machines.

I just need to use up about 60Ah overnight to simulate their draw. Most mornings I have a bagel and cream cheese with coffee, kind of my morning zen routine. For the rest of the week I'm going to take care of all that in the trailer, again to simulate as close as I can, a typical camping day/night.

I'll report back this weekend or sooner if the problem happens again before then. I cannot say how much I appreciate everyone's help with this!

Great work. Glad to hear you see an improvement with batteries fully charged and balanced. I would still be interested in seeing what the voltage is at the inverter inlet when you are running the toaster and how much it differs from the battery voltage you are reading on the Victron. It would be valuable to know the voltage drop with the stock Escape wiring.

[DT6]

Thank you! I'll check the voltage at the inverter when it is running later this week and post the findings.

[DT6]

FAILURE!

I continued my test. I ran the MaxxFan last night along with some lights and according to the Victron I used up about 30+Ah last night. I was able to run a 750W toaster this morning.

BUT - I just went back outside (very cloudy today) about 3 hours after toasting my morning bagel and - it no longer works. When I start the toaster, the lights flicker and the inverter shuts off. I also made Two other measurements/observations folks have been asking for:

1. I could not find an analog multimeter so I rigged my phone to take a movie of my digital one while starting the toaster. As I scroll through the movie, I can see the initial voltage at 13.39V. Then as I start the toaster the lights flicker and voltage drops to 11.36V, then quickly recovers to 13.4V. I did this a few times and the voltage drop on the next one was to 12.11V, and the third one dropped to 11.01V.
2. On two of the three occasions, the Inverter started beeping but only for a very short time. The second time it beeped, I got a look at the lights before it stopped beeping and the light next to the big "Triangle!" was blinking red. Again, this blinking/beeping stopped after only a second or two.

I've done everything the battery manufacturer said to do.

Thoughts/Suggestions?? Thanks.

I