Black Water Leaking to Gray Water

[cpaharley2008]

You are correct, almost all Airstreams are prefab units where the factory installs items with wire runs and plumbing runs already made up. I asked for an extra 120v outlet installed in one, told flat out no, no changes nothing customized, everything is already installed the way Airstream wants it.
Escape, being a custom manufacturer very seldom make 2 units the same, some units have no bath sink, some have no bath room, some have double kitchen sinks so the plumbing is custom made for each unit. Some Escapes have the sink and stove flipped, mine did. I doubt Airstream would do that because that would disrupt their production. Escape builds custom trailers.I think some even have no toilet since the owner wants to install a special unit. Try that with Airstream...So there is a reason why no pre printed schematics for plumbing for Escape but there are for other units.

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

You are correct, almost all Airstreams are prefab units where the factory installs items with wire runs and plumbing runs already made up. I asked for an extra 120v outlet installed in one, told flat out no, no changes nothing customized, everything is already installed the way Airstream wants it.
Escape, being a custom manufacturer very seldom make 2 units the same, some units have no bath sink, some have no bath room, some have double kitchen sinks so the plumbing is custom made for each unit. Some Escapes have the sink and stove flipped, mine did. I doubt Airstream would do that because that would disrupt their production. Escape builds custom trailers.I think some even have no toilet since the owner wants to install a special unit. Try that with Airstream...So there is a reason why no pre printed schematics for plumbing for Escape but there are for other units.

Jim, with all due respect you are changing the goalposts once shown to be incorrect. You made the comment "Try getting that info from Thor on any of their $80k Airstreams.....not." I shared that actually you can get that info from Thor and you switched to the fact that they are prefab units, not custom like Escape.

How many Escape trailers have you seen with the toilet in a non standard location? The plumbing doesn't change that much for in an Escape, especially regarding the black tank and if ETI wanted to they certainly could provide a plumbing schematic.

Black water flowing into the gray tank IS a problem.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by MikeS

if ETI wanted to they certainly could provide a plumbing schematic.

What's the value to Escape Trailer Industries if they do? And I agree with Jim. We've seen ALL KINDS of plumbing differences with custom builds. The only trailers that 'might' receive a plumbing schematic (if available) would be a 'spec' trailer and ETI doesn't sell very many of those.

[gbaglo]

What is a spec trailer?

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

What is a spec trailer?

A trailer built with only the standard features, no options.

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

What's the value to Escape Trailer Industries if they do? And I agree with Jim. We've seen ALL KINDS of plumbing differences with custom builds. The only trailers that 'might' receive a plumbing schematic (if available) would be a 'spec' trailer and ETI doesn't sell very many of those.

Um, maybe the value is in providing customer service and the ability for owners and 2nd owners to trace problems? ETI doesn't have a dealer network for repairs, so owners are on their own many times. Its not rocket science to take a schematic from a "spec" trailer and make a couple of updates. And again, how many Escapes have you seen with a non standard black tank?

The original statement was try getting that info from another manufacturer, once shown that is not an issue then it became ETI can't or shouldn't provide that info.

Whats the value to the owner community of poo pooing (pun intended) any suggestion that ETI could do something better or provide additional value?

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by MikeS

Um, maybe the value is in providing customer service and the ability for owners and 2nd owners to trace problems? ETI doesn't have a dealer network for repairs, so owners are on their own many times. Its not rocket science to take a schematic from a "spec" trailer and make a couple of updates. And again, how many Escapes have you seen with a non standard black tank?

The original statement was try getting that info from another manufacturer, once shown that is not an issue then it became ETI can't or shouldn't provide that info.

Whats the value to the owner community of poo pooing (pun intended) any suggestion that ETI could do something better or provide additional value?

For one simple reason, it is my opinion that Escape goes far and beyond other trailer manufacturers in producing their product just for you and this far and beyond effort may not include wiring or plumbing schematics but, again in my opinion their efforts elsewhere are worth not having these drawings in exchange for what they do perform. I'd be afraid that asking for detailed drawings may impact their production.

[steve dunham]

At least in my Escape the black tank is above the trailer floor , the gray tank is below the trailer floor and the shower drain opening is also below the bottom level of the black tank .
If both the gray tank and the black tank are full and both the sewer drain valves leak the water in the black tank will flow into the gray tank and overflow through the shower drain because it is lower than the black tank
Water seeks it’s own level and sh_t flows down hill
The venting is not the issue , on my Escape the vent openings are on the roof and open to the atmosphere .

[Dee08802]

Just ran another test. With the gray water empty and the gray water drain valve open I filled the black tank until there was water up to the toilet valve. Water ran out the gray water drain until the water level in the black tank dropped to the toilet neck connection to the tank. Apparently the vents tie together at the top of the black tank elevation. I would suspect that traveling with a black tank nearly full would slosh black water over to the gray tank. Now that I know I will avoid traveling with a nearly full black tank. It would be better if a separate vent were installed for each tank. However there my be a logical reason why this was not practical.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Try getting that info from Thor on any of their $80k Airstreams.....not. I was very put off with them years ago with customer service, it is what made me go to Escape.

My motorhome is a Damon, made soon after Thor bought Damon. I had a question about some of the wiring, and Thor technical support sent me extensive relevant wiring diagrams.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Dee08802

Just ran another test. With the gray water empty and the gray water drain valve open I filled the black tank until there was water up to the toilet valve. Water ran out the gray water drain until the water level in the black tank dropped to the toilet neck connection to the tank. Apparently the vents tie together at the top of the black tank elevation.

Excellent information and analysis.

Originally Posted by Dee08802

It would be better if a separate vent were installed for each tank. However there my be a logical reason why this was not practical.

Separate vents were practical until 2017, and there has been no body design change since. Perhaps the new configuration is intended to address the buried interior vent issue?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

At least in my Escape the black tank is above the trailer floor , the gray tank is below the trailer floor and the shower drain opening is also below the bottom level of the black tank .
If both the gray tank and the black tank are full and both the sewer drain valves leak the water in the black tank will flow into the gray tank and overflow through the shower drain because it is lower than the black tank

Yes, the black is always on top of the floor and grey is always below the floor, but that was not the valve situation in Dee's case. That path through two open or leading dump valves only works to fill the grey tank if the cap is on the discharge and holding pressure; it was not.

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The venting is not the issue , on my Escape the vent openings are on the roof and open to the atmosphere .

But in Dee's newer trailer, there are not separate vents to the roof, and the vent plumbing is the issue.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Yes, the black is always on top of the floor and grey is always below the floor, but that was not the valve situation in Dee's case. That path through two open or leading dump valves only works to fill the grey tank if the cap is on the discharge and holding pressure; it was not.


But in Dee's newer trailer, there are not separate vents to the roof, and the vent plumbing is the issue.

I assumed that each tank had its own separate vent MY MISTAKE

[Viajante]

I think it is incorrect to label Escapes as custom trailers. I think it is more accurate to label them as personalized. In my experience, especially with boats, custom means extensive modification of floor plans and equipment. Escape is great about fabrics, 12 volt drops, formica, exterior graphics, etc. But the basics remain the same.

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by Dee08802

Just ran another test. With the gray water empty and the gray water drain valve open I filled the black tank until there was water up to the toilet valve. Water ran out the gray water drain until the water level in the black tank dropped to the toilet neck connection to the tank. Apparently the vents tie together at the top of the black tank elevation. I would suspect that traveling with a black tank nearly full would slosh black water over to the gray tank. Now that I know I will avoid traveling with a nearly full black tank. It would be better if a separate vent were installed for each tank. However there my be a logical reason why this was not practical.

Thanks for the effort! The good news is you should be able to avoid the problem by giving the black tank a small buffer.

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Excellent information and analysis.


Separate vents were practical until 2017, and there has been no body design change since. Perhaps the new configuration is intended to address the buried interior vent issue?

If that is the case it is probably a worthwhile trade off.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

So there is a reason why no pre printed schematics for plumbing for Escape but there are for other units.

Originally Posted by Donna D.

We've seen ALL KINDS of plumbing differences with custom builds. The only trailers that 'might' receive a plumbing schematic (if available) would be a 'spec' trailer and ETI doesn't sell very many of those.

Escape could easily develop and provide a base plumbing schematic and state that any “custom” changes may not be reflected. The reality is that any differences are really minor in nature. These schematics can help owners with a basic understanding of their unit and any future troubleshooting. They can also help more advanced owners with modifications.

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

I'd be afraid that asking for detailed drawings may impact their production.

An in-house engineering team has nothing to do with production. Oliver has schematics that are really well done. This isn’t an ongoing effort for the company. Once they are done they are done with only design changes needing to be captured. I don’t think anyone is asking for a schematic specific to every trailer coming down the production line.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Viajante

I think it is incorrect to label Escapes as custom trailers. I think it is more accurate to label them as personalized. In my experience, especially with boats, custom means extensive modification of floor plans and equipment. Escape is great about fabrics, 12 volt drops, formica, exterior graphics, etc. But the basics remain the same.

I agree, and in all of the customizations that I have read about in this forum, I've never seen one which would change the drain/waste/vent plumbing other than a slight adjustment in the position of the kitchen sink trap, or the omission of the bathroom sink (with no other consequences).

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Perhaps the new configuration is intended to address the buried interior vent issue?

Originally Posted by MikeS

If that is the case it is probably a worthwhile trade off.

To me, it is replacing one undesirable configuration with another undesirable configuration. The old one (with the buried open pipe) seems easier to fix (with a through-the-wall vent) than the new design.

[Hen]

I don't think you should ever let the tanks get that high, that seems to be looking for trouble. Since this post really disturbed me I wrote to Escape about it and this was the reply.

"There is no plan on changing the configuration at this time, as there is no room for a second vent. The only time that this could be an issue is if you over flow your black tank and the contents start going up the vent tube. If you dump your tank as you should there is no issue."

We have owned two Casita's in the past and never had a problem, but then we never traveled with full tanks (that's a lot of weight), and never they the black tank get close to the toilet valve. Make sense?