broken frame and sorta peeved!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Dave Walter

Actually, a hole through the centre of a beam will compromise the strength of that beam. The shear strength of the beam relies on the entire cross-sectional area of the beam to resist shear forces, if you cut a hole through the beam, you reduce the area available to resist shear, and thus decrease the shear resistance. However, it is often the bending moment resistance that governs the design of a beam...

I think that trailer frames are excellent examples of this - they're under bending stress due to support at the axle and coupler ends, with vertical load distributed along the length.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Since at least 1993 (when i built a previous home) you could not drill through dimensional lumber to run plumbing/electrical or anything else in California. In my current home I learned the lesson of squeaking floor joists and used engineered lumber which does allow drilling through horizontally.

Yeah, but that's California, where everything gives you cancer. Physics, biology... it all works differently there.

I assume that this sort of rule would be made because idiots (everywhere) notch the bottom of joists, or drill through very close to the edge, or make enormous holes for ducts. Harmless small holes through joists at mid-height are eliminated in favour of a simple rule that anyone can follow and anyone can check.

Also, I'm not sure that's the California rule at all, since the copy I found of the 2106 California Residential Code clearly describes allowed holes (and even notches) in dimensional lumber used for floor joists (in section R502.8).
A less conveniently readable copy from the International Code Council is perhaps more authoritative because it is linked by the California Building Standards Commision... and it says the same thing.

Anyway... don't mess with the top or (especially) bottom of a beam under bending stress.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by frank_a

When I have a hole going through a frame, I size it so a piece of heavy wall tubing can be welded in both sides. For instance the hot rod frame I built has two holes each side (in the back) through the top of the 2 X 3 X 3/16 wall frame that hold 5/8 inch bolts that secure the gas tank platform. I used 5/8 i.d. heavy wall tubing for those holes and welded them top and bottom. In eleven years on the road, nary a problem.

Good design.

The easier solution is to avoid those vertical holes, which is the solution which Escape has chosen, now using brackets welded to the side of the frame (as shown in the photo above) for body bolts.

Originally Posted by frank_a

And I bet ETI has great welding equipment, and could easily do that.

ETI gets the trailer frames made to their specifications by a steel fabrication supplier, which is presumably well-equipped for their job.

Originally Posted by frank_a

I couldn't imagine fixing this without removing the body. It is a mystery to me.

The fix in the previous case was to use thick plates on each side to bridge the failure point, so access to the top of the frame is not required - the crack was not repaired across the top.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That size of tubing (3" tall) was used for the entire length of the frame on models up to 19' and the original 5.0, but in the 21' and 5.0TA that size has always been used only for the stepped-up section at the back of the trailer, which carries much less load than the forward part of the frame.

Thanks Brain
But this leaves me more perplexed, are you saying the 1st gen 21 and 5.0 T/A where fabricated with 4" x 2" x 1/8" tube steel and only the rear step up section is 3" x 2" x 1/8" tube steel ??

[J&B Mitt]

Not totally germane to this discussion, but for reference, here's a photo of a 2017 Escape 19' frame.

[Chris R]

Originally Posted by Tin

Thanks Brain
But this leaves me more perplexed, are you saying the 1st gen 21 and 5.0 T/A where fabricated with 4" x 2" x 1/8" tube steel and only the rear step up section is 3" x 2" x 1/8" tube steel ??

My 2016 5TA is all 3 x 2, no 4 inch anywhere or rear step.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Chris R

My 2016 5TA is all 3 x 2, no 4 inch anywhere or rear step.

All 5.0TAs use 3"x2" tube for the frame. Not sure how many attachment points are underneath the lower part of the shell, but the loft has eight 5/16" bolts anchoring it to the frame. I would bet given the design of the frame/shell layout and anchoring, this is one stiff setup. With the 19, there is WAY more flexure on the frame out to the tongue, especially with the 3" frame.

edit to add - Along with other components, it is a good idea to check the tightness of these mounting bolts. I plan to do mine when it warms up here. Probably not necessary every year (maybe other than the first), but something to think about periodically.

[Jubal]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

I very much sympathize with the OP on this one, and as others do, admire his attitude under frustrating and stressful circumstances.

Re. the break, as mentioned earlier, both the through bolt and the weld are suspect as the cause of the cracking. However, the pictures posted earlier in this particular case look more suggestive to me of cracking originating at the weld bead than having anything to do with the through bolt. The weld likely weakened and made the tube near the bead more brittle, which set off the cracking.

In any case, I suggest being careful about choosing a repair shop. As pointed out earlier, welding T1 steel is tricky. Just adding a thicker piece of steel will not solve the problem if the welding just fixes one failure while setting up a similar one for the future. Keep in mind that it is not the weld itself that failed, it is almost certainly the T1 steel adjacent to it that was weakened and made brittle by the heat of the weld.

At a minimum, the repair shop must be informed that the frame is T1. I imagine that Reace will be on top of this, but best keep it in mind.

We were not advised that the frame was T1 steel when we were sent the mending plates by Reace to be welded on the frame of the escape 19 for reinforcement !

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Tin

Thanks Brain
But this leaves me more perplexed, are you saying the 1st gen 21 and 5.0 T/A where fabricated with 4" x 2" x 1/8" tube steel and only the rear step up section is 3" x 2" x 1/8" tube steel ??

That was my understanding, and I'm pretty sure it was correct; however, it appears that this may have changed.

Tin's new thread on this topic: 2017 2nd gen. 5.0 T/A built with 3" frame not 4"

[Iowa Dave]

We have one of the first 21s built. 09/2013. It was originally purchased on the introductory offer. I just went down to our storage garage to measure. The frame is 4" by 2" tubular steel. There are no vertical through bolts. The body is attached with tabs welded to the frame. All the bolts are tight. And my aging knees hurt. Can't say about others but this one is 4X2.
Iowa Dave

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by Jubal

We were not advised that the frame was T1 steel when we were sent the mending plates by Reace to be welded on the frame of the escape 19 for reinforcement !

My welder at a farm shop in Van Horne Iowa dinged the frame once with his chipping hammer and proceeded to surface grind the area where the plates were to be welded. I asked, can you do it, he said a lot of trailer frames are built like this and away he went. He did a very nice job, painted his work, I settled up with him and he went back to farm equipment which cost a lot more than the trailer.
Iowa Dave

[flatpick]

Jim wrote:"Steve, just want to say I admire your attitude through this ordeal. The best way to a successful remedy is done with a cool head and good attitude"

you don't get thru life without a few hiccups! talked to Rease this morn and he's going all out to get this problem with our trailer "put to bed" for us. He's looking into all facets of this issue and I'm sure we will hear more soon.

steve

[thoer]

Well said and great attitude Steve

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by thoer

Well said and great attitude Steve

ditto

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by Jubal

We were not advised that the frame was T1 steel when we were sent the mending plates by Reace to be welded on the frame of the escape 19 for reinforcement !

Sorry, I was making assumptions based on earlier discussion here. I have no real information on whether T1 was used. If Reace is supplying the plates and advising how they should be applied, I assume that the design issues regarding the type of steel in the frame have been dealt with. When we pick up ours, I will be asking about the steel though, it would be good to know for sure.

[tdf-texas]

I thought I'd better take a look at my 21' for any frame problems after following this thread.

Most of the frame looks good with support tabs welded on the frame rail sides with one glaring exception. The front stabilizers are bolted to the frame using holes drilled into the bottom of the frame rail.

This weakens the frame right at a stress point and I will be keeping an eye on it for any cracking.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

I thought I'd better take a look at my 21' for any frame problems after following this thread.

Most of the frame looks good with support tabs welded on the frame rail sides with one glaring exception. The front stabilizers are bolted to the frame using holes drilled into the bottom of the frame rail.

This weakens the frame right at a stress point and I will keeping an eye on it for any cracking.

Is that an extra plate welded on to reinforce the inside of the A-frame joint? If so, any weakness introduced by the bolt holes should be covered. Nonetheless, I too will be keeping an eye on this issue with our trailer. This thread has been a bit of an eye opener for me.

[Oldtimer]

Good catch TDF

[thoer]

That ETI is using T1 steel for the tubing seems to have become an accepted fact, when as far as I can tell, this has never actually been confirmed by Reace or anyone at ETI. It is entirely possible that it was a correct assumption, but it is also possible that it is another type of steel.

If someone has had direct confirmation by ETI it would be great to hear about it.

[reace]

Originally Posted by thoer

That ETI is using T1 steel for the tubing seems to have become an accepted fact, when as far as I can tell, this has never actually been confirmed by Reace or anyone at ETI. It is entirely possible that it was a correct assumption, but it is also possible that it is another type of steel.

If someone has had direct confirmation by ETI it would be great to hear about it.

I am not sure where that information came from but we have never used T1 steel for the chassis. I am not sure that tubing is even available in T1.

The chassis are all manufactured using certified structural steel and there is nothing special regarding welding to it.

Reace