electric heater for boondocking?

[Mike G]

When I camped at altitude in a UHaul egg trailer (rented for a trip in '85), the furnace wouldn't fire dependably. Turned out, the spark gap had to be adjusted wider due to the lower oxygen content of the air. Totally different furnace than the Escape's, though.

I have used a Coleman Black Cat catalytic heater at 9500' without problems. Another alternative might be a kerosene heater, perhaps?

[StarvingHyena]

I think I would follow John's lead and replace my regulator. I was having some issues and that is what I did. It cured my problems .... think it was my refer not working on propane. Anyway I installed an Excelisor- Marshall .... for about $50 - $60. I also inspected my pigtails and discovered excessive cracking. Perhaps those pigtails were leaking and dropping my propane pressure. This is an easy and not very expensive fix.

On a similar note: some members have had trouble with clogged orfices - I think usually refer. Propane is not a really pure fuel and may be contaminated with small grit, oil and perhaps water. I wish some really smart fellow would invent a spin on gas filter.

Tom

[dfandrews]

There are some important clues in the first post:
1) furnace not working above 7000'
2) water heater not working above 7000'


My experience: all propane fired devices in our Escape work properly up to about 10,000 ft. We buy propane near our home, which is at 130 ft. above sea level. Our propane regulator (properly) regulates pressure to 11" w.g.


Other info: As Carl states in his post, propane is a chemical compound; it is not a blend of a variety of compounds.



I believe John hit the correct issue. This has all the earmarks of a propane regulator not delivering sufficient pressure to operate the appliances.


Check your regulator pressure, especially at or near operating altitude.

[John in Santa Cruz]

you can make a manometer out of some clear vinyl hose with 5/16" ID, and a wooden stand you put measured marks on, this will accurately measure your 11 water inches, also can tell you if you have a leak.after the regulator. there'sa bunch of rv nerds on youtube with howto vids on this.

[CharlesPou]

thanks for comments, keep them coming. the comment about spark gap is a good one. researching this issue, I've come across other comments about spark gap being critical, and if off can cause problems. after the furnace tries to ignite a couple of times, it of course shuts down. I'm thinking if could stick a lit match in the combustion chamber, it would light and be stay lit once the furnace came on full bore, not that I would do that lols. maybe if the spark gap is off, it becomes more critical at higher elevations? I know from researching Mr Heater Buddy, that above 7000' the piezo will often not light it. suggestion was to bring some matches to light it, and after lit would work fine, but not for everyone. Mr Heater Buddy instructions clearly say not for use above 7000', but some get it to work, others not. seems to be a recurring theme? I would like to check the spark gap.

anyone ever pull the furnace? I had to pull the furnace on my 2004 Casita to clean out mud dauber nests. I remember it being tricky because of the safety features controlling electric power and propane flow. you just have to be careful to turn off power, and propane bottles. reinstalling it, I spent a lot of time turning on and off the electricity and propane. also, I was careful to eliminate all the loose parts, and got rid of the rattles that the Casita furnace is infamous for. it was so nice and quite, just fan noise after reinstall. on Casita forum there are many haters that recommend not getting the furnace because of the noise. especially after I eliminated all the rattles, I thought the furnace was one of best options, always reliable, a must have. so, my furnace experience with my new 2018 Escape has been very disappointing.

on my 2018 the furnace is installed from the outside and should just slide out. however, probably not that easy, maybe a couple of tricks to get it out without destroying something? I've asked this before the got absolutely no response. cheers

[UncleTim]

This is actually a great discussion. John, that chart was very helpful. And I loved the chemistry explanation of octane. Love it!

I actually have a better understanding of the different parts of the system after reading this thread. Hanging around here, a guy could learn something. Thanks!

[CharlesPou]

I think a tangent, but concerning octane, are we talking about additives to gasoline to delay combustion? as you may recall, lead used to be added to gasoline to increase octane, I'm not chemist, but don't think lead has carbon atoms? lols

[UncleTim]

Originally Posted by CharlesPou

I think a tangent, but concerning octane, are we talking about additives to gasoline to delay combustion? as you may recall, lead used to be added to gasoline to increase octane, I'm not chemist, but don't think lead has carbon atoms? lols

I just focused on the chemistry. How the molecule forms. It took me back to Purdue University for a moment.

I have heard of propane containing impurities. I saw a video of some guy that was purifying butane. Don't ask why, it's just Colorado again. But it was full of impurities. So it's not surprising propane could contain some too.

[TZBrown]

A bit on propane contamination in an article, more things to look at maybe

https://www.escapees.com/oil-contami...p-gas-systems/

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by StarvingHyena

I think I would follow John's lead and replace my regulator. I was having some issues and that is what I did. It cured my problems .... think it was my refer not working on propane. Anyway I installed an Excelisor- Marshall .... for about $50 - $60. I also inspected my pigtails and discovered excessive cracking. Perhaps those pigtails were leaking and dropping my propane pressure. This is an easy and not very expensive fix.

x2. I have no experience at high altitudes but I would replace the regulator or at least test it so that you have a baseline pressure. One could argue that lower pressure is better at higher altitude but we have no idea what your regulator is doing...could be low, could be high, could be erratic. Just because a stove is working fine doesn't mean that other appliances that are more sensitive to the pressure won't be flaky. I have written up on using a manometer to test at refrigerator test port and have helped other members dial in their pressure. You don't want to drop below 11" water column (w.c.) with 50% of trailer BTU's in use. This basically puts you at 12" w.c. with no load. Start there.

This is the regulator that many of us have used as a replacement:
https://www.amazon.com/Marshall-Exce.../dp/B00KPR9Q30

Here is a thread where I assist another member on testing their pressure:
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post260752

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by CharlesPou

I think a tangent, but concerning octane, are we talking about additives to gasoline to delay combustion? as you may recall, lead used to be added to gasoline to increase octane, I'm not chemist, but don't think lead has carbon atoms? lols

No. Eight carbon hydrocarbons are the most resistant to combustion. Refineries utilize a process call cracking to break the longer carbon chain hydrocarbons to yield more eight carbon molecules, thereby increasing the number of octane molecules and the octane rating. Tetraethyl lead was an additive to make up for the reduced amount of octane molecules in fuel. You cannot increase octane with an additive; it can only be increased by increasing the octane content itself. Additives simply make fuel combust as if it had a higher octane content.

[CharlesPou]

I guess should count my blessings, have friend with 2013 Escape 19 and refrigerator doesn't work on propane. hope I don't jinks myself, but my 2018 Escape 21 refrigerator works awesome!

I guess could replace regulator?, but I'm inclinded to replace the circuit board 1st. has anyone been following thread "Furnace Blower Motor Fails in 2018 Escape 19"? very similar to my issues before I resorted to just opening 1 propane tank. now mine works well unless I'm at a higher altitude. the consensus was to replace the circuit board?, after a lot of testing battery power, which for me seems similar to me testing regulator?

IDK, but think refrigerator is probably most sensitive appliance to faulty regulator, and mine works great all the time, or at least the food stays cold lols. there were several testimonials that replacing circuit board solved the issue with 2018 Escape 19 furnace, and one 2018 Escape 21 chimed in that it fixed their similar issue too. I was pretty close to getting a new circuit board several times, but furnace started working better, and it's only recently I have figured out it appears to be fixed, but not at higher elevations. it's amazing how long it takes to figure all this out, when you only camp and need the furnace from time to time, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. like when your car that does something bad, but won't do it when you take it in the dealer.

a couple of take aways from other thread "furnace blower motor falls in 2018 Escape 19". 1st they took it in for warranty service and it was apparently miss diagnosed, and they have been getting the run around for awhile now. 2nd there are several replies that theirs apparently doesn't work either, so rather than fix it, they recommend getting a portable heater. I think furnace not working properly is fairly common problem, and maybe mine works better than many lols.

if I can figure out which one to buy, I'm going to order a new circuit board today. cheers

[UncleTim]

I bet the regulator is cheaper to replace.

[DanandDaphne]

Yes as I said in post # 4, we have only used it a few times but the furnace has always worked great.

Interesting link you posted https://www.propane101.com/propanegradesandquality.htm, It look like most people do get the HD-5 grade but you never know especially in California but it looks like it is pretty random though. Sounds like some people might be getting pure propane and others who knows.

I have asked my propane delivery person and he said what they deliver is the same propane his truck runs on although he can't fill his truck's tank from his delivery tank. I also usually fill my 20# tanks at a gas station that's from the same company.

[fudge_brownie]

I just finished camping at 9,000 feet. I have been temporarily driven to lower altitudes with the Colorado storm predicting 9-16 inches. While at that elevation I had trouble with the refrigerator alarming in the early morning as the high elevation causes the fuel to be too rich for combustion. I have a four year old Marshall regulator.

I had my digital manometer along and checked the column inches. It showed 10.7 at the regulator. I dialed the adjustment down to 9.7 and it performed flawlessly.

I would argue that having a recommended propane regulator vs the model provided by Escape may have helped. I would first invest in a quality regulator followed by a digital manometer and your pocketbook will only have a $75 dent.

It is also said the cold is especially hard on regulator efficiency, they also have a lifespan before the internal parts harden and fail. Eight to ten years.

I plan to return to 9,000 starting on Friday. Hope the snow has melted.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

There is no such thing as high-octane or low-octane propane.
Octane and propane are hydrocarbons, or carbon atoms bonded to hydrogen atoms. When the ignite in the presence of oxygen, the bonds are broken releasing energy and new bonds are formed between the carbon and oxygen atoms and the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

Propane is a hydrocarbon which contains three carbon atoms. Octane on the other hand contains eight carbon atoms. Propane is propane and octane is octane. As such, the number of carbon atoms in the hydrocarbon chains determine what compound you have. Motor fuels, that is, gasoline, are typically a mixture of hydrocarbons having larger numbers of carbon atoms in the individual molecules. Essentially, the greater the number of eight carbon molecules in a volume of gasoline the higher the octane rating. Propane does not have an octane rating because propane does not contain any octane molecules.

When I worked at the refinery, they always referred to Propane as C3 and now I know why !

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by CharlesPou

IDK, but I don't think we are getting auto grade propane in our 20# tanks...

I've never seen or heard of a station which dispenses bulk propane to fill 20-pound tanks and propane to fill vehicle fuel tanks and which has two separate propane supply tanks... it's all the same. What that one grade is, I don't know.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

Since lightweight, high-octane propane vaporize before the heavier, low-octane propane, the ignition properties change as the cylinder empties.

It isn't "high-octane propane" or "low-octane propane", but rather different hydrocarbons within the mix of Liquified Petroleum Gas (that's what "LPG" means) which is mostly propane, and which we just call "propane". As discussed earlier, butane is the most common component other than propane.

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

I always thought the grill or whatever burned hotter with full bottles just because they are full and have a better rate of evaporation.

And that is probably the main effect - better heat transfer into the tank with more liquid, and more mass of liquid, so the propane in the tank chills less due to vapourization and so the temperature - and thus the pressure - stays higher.

[CharlesPou]

just read rubicon's link to how to adjust regulator with manometer. amazing, this is way more complicated than I want, but may have to go there, runicon, thanks for sharing all the very helpful info.

I still don't think my issue is regulator, because I've had furnace on, water heater running, and cooking with 2 burners on stove top, maybe oven on too (I like to cook), and I never have seen the flame drop on the stove top.

I ordered the furnace board already. when it comes in, I'll install and see how it goes. if still have same problem, then I'll order new regulator, manometer, and follow rubicon's excellent instructions.

concerning propane quality, I don't know about octane, whether same used in autos,etc, but pretty sure I have run across some propane with impurities. with Casita I used to exclusively exchange tanks. after awhile, I had trouble with the refrigerator main jet clogging up with something, and got pretty good cleaning it out fast.

with 2018 Escape 21, I've always had my nice new tanks refilled. in addition to getting a better deal, more propane for less $'s, I think the quality overall has to be better, because usually you are buying form a local business out of the same tank the locals buy from. if they are selling contaminated propane, they will know fast from their local customers. the exchange tanks or much more problematic IMO. some time ago I was doing research about how much propane they put in exchange tanks, companies like Rino, and American, a lot less. I also ran across information about tanks being used to as vessels to cook drugs like speed, and came back contaminated. the exchange companies are supposed to purge the tanks before refilling, but you know how it goes. cheers

[canyonrider]

Another vote for checking and adjusting pressure at the regulator with a manometer. This solved my fridge issues at high altitudes. My understanding is that the appliances have varying sensitivity to different pressures, with the stove being the least sensitive.

In talking with Reace about this he recommended adjusting pressure at the regulator anytime we traveled to a significantly different elevation. Most of our camping is above 9000 feet, so I just set it when we were camped around 10,000 feet and haven’t adjusted it since. The same adjustment has also been just fine around 5000 feet, but if we ever head closer to sea level I will likely readjust.