Electrical wiring diagrams

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Here is a copy of my trailer's wiring diagram. I have made some improvements in Escape's wiring that I think makes it better.

Thanks a lot for posting these. We are on the list for a 21C and are making decisions about options. I'm installing a 400Ah LFP battery and would like to run whatever I can off that. We're deciding about the 120V water heater option and wondering how big of a pull it is? From the diagrams you posted it looks like it comes straight off the shore power inlet and would not run off inverter without rewiring. Is that correct? Depending on its wattage requirements, it might be too much for the inverter anyway. We rarely camp with power pole so if the heater requires shore power, we'll probably opt for LPG only unless it's possible/reasonable to run it from the inverter as an option. Thanks

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Semievolved

We're deciding about the 120V water heater option and wondering how big of a pull it is? ....

Hopefully you realize that the 120V option allows 120VAC operation in addition to LP operation; you'll always have the choice to heat water with LP (or both concurrently for quicker heating when you have both energy sources available).

Having said that, you can download the manual for the water heater in the files section of the forum at https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/d...?do=file&id=80

There you'll find on page 6 that the electric heating element is rated 1440W @ 120VAC = 12A

FWIW I'm with David - I'd go for the 2-way (LP/120VAC) option but wouldn't run it in the electric mode unless I had shore power (and then I definitely would use the shore power). That flexibility has served me well in my Casita for decades.

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by davidmurphy02

The 120V water heater element would be a huge draw and not practical to run off inverter, especially when LPG works so well and uses relatively little propane. But for the minimal additional cost, you might want to consider getting the dual source water heater - for times when you are plugged in it's nice to be able to just leave it on all the time, no harm in having it and rarely using it.

Thank you for your opinions. Luckily, the next poster actually included helpful information that allows me to make my own decisions. Using "relatively little propane" is totally subjective. We have been camping in our Scamp for many years and are well aware of the propane usage of various appliances. Our goal is to minimize our fuel usage and carbon impact as much as is reasonably possible. And, FWIW our home has been offgrid for 7 years so we are also aware of the limitations of running electrical appliances off the sun and batteries.

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by Centex

Hopefully you realize that the 120V option allows 120VAC operation in addition to LP operation; you'll always have the choice to heat water with LP (or both concurrently for quicker heating when you have both energy sources available).

Having said that, you can download the manual for the water heater in the files section of the forum at https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/d...?do=file&id=80

There you'll find on page 6 that the electric heating element is rated 1440W @ 120VAC = 12A

FWIW I'm with David - I'd go for the 2-way (LP/120VAC) option but wouldn't run it in the electric mode unless I had shore power (and then I definitely would use the shore power). That flexibility has served me well in my Casita for decades.

Thank you Centex for posting that helpful information and the manual. It's good to know it's a 1440W appliance which would certainly be on the edge for a 1500W inverter. I see the manual includes instructions for wiring to a 12V circuit so clearly that is a reasonable option in somebody's opinion. To calculate the actual battery capacity this would cost me, I'd still need to know approximately how long it would have to heat to come to warm temperature. With our propane heater, I set the thermostat to one mark below warm and turn it off when my wife gets into the shower and it's plenty of water for both of us to shower. It takes about 25 minutes on propane. Do you think 10 minutes on electric to reach that same temperature would be a reasonable guess? If it's 1/4 hour at 1,440W assuming battery at 13V, that's 28Ah which would be totally fine for a 420Ah battery as I will have. With 380W of panels assumed to be harvesting at 50%, it would take less than 2 hours to recharge that capacity.



I understand folks' feeling that the "correct" approach is to only power this with electricity when on shore power. But, if a rig has ample solar collection and storage and is charging up every day with hours to spare, splurging on shower courtesy of the battery every so often seems like a logical option to me.

[JeffreyG]

EDIT -OOP, forgot to actually multiply the Cp. I come up with roughly 1150 watt-hours to warm up the water tank from 10C to 55C.

Figure 6 gallons = 22.6 kg water, 4.1 kJ/kg-K, and 45K temperature rise. I calculate about 4070 kJ total energy which is 1150 watt-hours.


So the heater should pull the 1400 watts from the invertor for about 50 minutes coming up to temperature. I think that means it would use up about 120 amp-hours from your batteries for every time you used 6 gallons, plus some additional maintenance energy for heat leakage while sitting. That's doing all the heating with electricity, which I'm not 100% sure was the question.

[brroberts]

My experience with 6 gal RV water heaters is 30-45 minutes to initially heat water and 15-20 on maintenance for electric only heating. It depends on initial temps obviously.

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

EDIT -OOP, forgot to actually multiply the Cp. I come up with roughly 1150 watt-hours to warm up the water tank from 10C to 55C.

Figure 6 gallons = 22.6 kg water, 4.1 kJ/kg-K, and 45K temperature rise. I calculate about 4070 kJ total energy which is 1150 watt-hours.


So the heater should pull the 1400 watts from the invertor for about 50 minutes coming up to temperature. I think that means it would use up about 120 amp-hours from your batteries for every time you used 6 gallons, plus some additional maintenance energy for heat leakage while sitting. That's doing all the heating with electricity, which I'm not 100% sure was the question.

thanks, that's useful, but we won't heat to anywhere near 55 C, which is 131 F. i am guessing that we heat to just over 100 and then we don't mix with cold water. is it true that the electric heater is faster than the propane? if so, our usage would be well under a half hour. plus, it looks like you are assuming 12V for the battery but with LFP, 13V is much more reasonable. in fact, my LFP will be set to disconnect if it falls below 12.25V.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by Semievolved

Thank you Centex for posting that helpful information and the manual. It's good to know it's a 1440W appliance which would certainly be on the edge for a 1500W inverter. I see the manual includes instructions for wiring to a 12V circuit so clearly that is a reasonable option in somebody's opinion. To calculate the actual battery capacity this would cost me, I'd still need to know approximately how long it would have to heat to come to warm temperature. With our propane heater, I set the thermostat to one mark below warm and turn it off when my wife gets into the shower and it's plenty of water for both of us to shower. It takes about 25 minutes on propane. Do you think 10 minutes on electric to reach that same temperature would be a reasonable guess? If it's 1/4 hour at 1,440W assuming battery at 13V, that's 28Ah which would be totally fine for a 420Ah battery as I will have. With 380W of panels assumed to be harvesting at 50%, it would take less than 2 hours to recharge that capacity.



I understand folks' feeling that the "correct" approach is to only power this with electricity when on shore power. But, if a rig has ample solar collection and storage and is charging up every day with hours to spare, splurging on shower courtesy of the battery every so often seems like a logical option to me.

I would re read the manual. The heating portion of the unit cannot run on 12 Volt DC. the 12 volt wiring it for the controls only.



I don't think you can draw 1440 watts from the ETI installed inverter. I don't agree that this is a logical option. You may be able to with a 2000 watt inverter. There is a reason people are saying its not logical.

[brroberts]

My experience is propane is faster, but I don’t own an Escape yet.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by brroberts

My experience is propane is faster, but I don’t own an Escape yet.

That's my experience as well, with my last RV.



I hear a lot of people use the electric heat only as a supplement to the propane even with shore power because it takes so long on 120V alone.

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

That's my experience as well, with my last RV.



I hear a lot of people use the electric heat only as a supplement to the propane even with shore power because it takes so long on 120V alone.

thanks a lot folks. in addition to learning that electrical heating is slower than propane and that there is a documents section on this forum which is very helpful, i also finally snapped and realized the problem is that this would require a dedicated 120A circuit, way more than i want to deal with. was just a thought and hope that i could use less propane but it's not reasonable i now realize. and, i think the 12V hookup must be just for the thermostat loop although i admit i haven't gone back and checked the manual. thanks

[tdf-texas]

And the forum has turned a thread on electrical wiring diagrams into a discussion on hot water heaters.

[algonquin50]

Originally Posted by Mark B1

Great information. Should be in the manual provided by the manufacturer.

When I purchased my 2017 5.0 , Erin got me one from Dave..........good thing to bring up with Escape as it can come in handy.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

And the forum has turned a thread on electrical wiring diagrams into a discussion on hot water heaters.

Electric hot water heaters.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

Electric hot water heaters.

Electric water heaters.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Semievolved

i think the 12V hookup must be just for the thermostat loop although i admit i haven't gone back and checked the manual.

Yes, the 12V diagram associated with the Suburban SW6DE water heater is for the controls/ignition module when running on propane gas.

[wackyburggeezer]

Hey TDF-Texas,

Thanks for posting that set of wiring schematics. Our 2019 E19 is wired 'close to, but not exactly'. Relocating the distribution panel, I discovered that it seems that it's okay to use a #10AWG butt splice to connect three #14 wires as long as you leave a few strands exposed!! No harm, all fixed.

[Semievolved]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

And the forum has turned a thread on electrical wiring diagrams into a discussion on hot water heaters.

my bad, i am sorry i didn't mean to do that, i thought it was a quick easy question. oops.

[John in Santa Cruz]

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[Tin]

Thanks TDF, very nice.!