Failed Battery Replacement Dilemma

[rbryan4]

I guess it depends on what you consider affordable. If it were me, I like the idea of heading to Costco and getting a couple 6V Interstates. $200, and deal with the AGMs after your trip.

[dfandrews]

Walmart is even a possibility. We had started on a 3,000 mile camping and exploring trip. The 1st night, we pulled in and joined the ring of campers in the parking lot outside Walmart, Spanish Fork, UT. Wife noticed a low voltage reading on our solar controller (after dark). Our 23.8 month old Interstate battery had a bad cell. So we got a cart, loaded up the battery, went into the Walmart, and got a new one for almost $100 bucks. 1½ years later, it's still working fine.

[gbaglo]

Check that Walmart battery to make sure it is a true deep cycle and not a combo "deep cycle" and starting battery that they sell for boats. Last I looked here, they didn't sell a true deep cycle.

[Chotch]

Originally Posted by emers382

We returned to Costco a washer and dryer after six months use without boxes!

Costco does back their products!
Just returned 55" TV after 13 months. Still had the box. Learned a while back to save packaging. 😁

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by emers382

We returned to Costco a washer and dryer after six months use without boxes!

Gee, seems odd both went bad together ?

[emers382]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Gee, seems odd both went bad together ?

Beth never really liked the washer, one of those new top loading with no agitator, supposed to use less water but never got the clothes clean and tangled them up. finally had enough, checked with Costco and yes they said OK to return them. Nothing wrong with dryer just wanted new set to match

[cpaharley2008]

Come to think of it, mine does not have an agitator, it is one of those High Efficient models that use only "HE" soap. But I thought all the new ones were that way, did you find a new one with the agitator?

[elongest]

Maytag and GE are making the old school models with full filling tubs and agitators. I was shopping for a washer last week. I was ready to go to Good Will or get DW a washboard but found the new ones at Lowes and HD and they were reasonably priced.
Eddie

[emers382]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Come to think of it, mine does not have an agitator, it is one of those High Efficient models that use only "HE" soap. But I thought all the new ones were that way, did you find a new one with the agitator?

We went back to a front loading washer, and did not buy at Costco.


on edit: Perhaps we should go back to just talking about batteries, the theme of this thread.

[Upfisk]

Costco 6 V batteries only have a 12 month warranty

[fudge_brownie]

Originally Posted by Lanark Camper

In my experience AGM's don't have a long life if they are not charged to 100% daily, if left for longer periods with less than a full charge they will fail prematurely.
Bob

A good description of AGM’s, however I have not read anything to support your experience that less than 100% charge increases the failure rate.

[Perry Butler]

The batteries are now back!

We left Organ Pipe Wednesday morning and got an electric site 20 miles north at Why. At the Why campground I disconnected the solar and batteries and then plugged our ChargeIT controller to our batteries at about 10:30 am. At 6 that evening the charger said “Charged”. I then hit the “Charge” button and they read 95% charged, started charging at 14.6 and at about 9 that evening the charger said “Charged”. I hit the "Charge" button again and it went back to 95% charged, started charging at 14.6 v and sure enough about midnight the ChargeIT said “Charged”. I did this again at 3 am and again at 6 am. At about 9 am we left for Lost Dutchman outside of Apache Junction. When we left Why the batteries read 13.87 volts using my volt/ohm meter. I think we zapped them back into shape.

The drive took us three hours (it was extremely windy and I drove 55 mph, plus we stopped a couple of times). At about 1:30 I stopped at the Battery +/- Center in Mesa. One of the mechanics there went to our camper and connected his tester and they read 13.3 volts (my volt/ohm meter also said 13.3 v). I asked him if he would do a drawdown test and he said, “Why? Whenever batteries are this charged up after a four hour wait he’s never seen a problem.”

He asked if we had installed a Progressive Dynamics power converter in our WFCO unit and I said no. He feels the charger in the WFCO unit is a piece of crap and since we had purchased high-end batteries it made sense to have a decent 3-stage charger that will “fully” charge our batteries. I nearly installed one in our Lance, and when I get home will install one in our 5.0.

He feels that “all” AGM’s need equalization a minimum of every 30 days camping, and especially if they’ve been drawn down to <11.5v. Our Crown representative asked us to equalize the AGM’s first before he would issue any replacements. Hopefully, by continuously charging at 14.6 like I did at Why the batteries are at least in decent shape. Last night we had a low around 30 F and the batteries were at 12.7 in the morning. Today was cloudy/rainy all day so not any solar gain and they currently are at 12.6 v’s. We’re going to have similar temps tonight, so hopefully the drain won’t be severe and we won’t drain the batteries too much. It’s already clear tonight and is supposed to be clear all day tomorrow so perhaps we’ll get some positive amps back.

At this point in time we won’t be getting a new batteries, since the Crowns should be back to near normal. Sometime in the next two weeks I’ll be installing the Victron 712 Battery Monitor and when we get home will be installing a Progressive Dynamics power converter in our WFCO.

Thanks for your opinions.

Perry

[fudge_brownie]

That is good news. It gives us faith in persistence. Regarding the WFCO converter, I could not agree more with the Batteries + tech, it really is a piece of junk. In my looking at the Progressive Dynamicis converter I did not find what I was looking for. The big reason it did not provide anything near the voltage required to equalize my flooded 6 volts. And it is the same for absorption.

So the first question is: what voltages does Crown recommend for float, absorption and equalization?

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

He asked if we had installed a Progressive Dynamics power converter in our WFCO unit and I said no. He feels the charger in the WFCO unit is a piece of crap and since we had purchased high-end batteries it made sense to have a decent 3-stage charger that will “fully” charge our batteries.

At this point in time we won’t be getting a new batteries, since the Crowns should be back to near normal. Sometime in the next two weeks I’ll be installing the Victron 712 Battery Monitor and when we get home will be installing a Progressive Dynamics power converter in our WFCO.

Thanks for your opinions.

Perry

With a good solar charger, there is really no need to change the WFCO charger. I have the Victron 100/30 MPPT and it takes care of absorption and equalization charge voltages per the battery recommendations.

[padlin]

The WFCO might be a lousy charger (I've never seen mine go into bulk mode), but it should still charge your batteries if hooked up to city power, just takes longer with no bulk mode. I've seen mine take 24 hours from 50%.

Think I'd check the output from your solar controller, sounds like it failed to charge your batteries in the first place although it could be other things.

FWIW, when I have no hookups and need to run the furnace I burn between 20 and 30 amps a day, closer to 20. In the winter that's roughly what I can get from the solar in a day if it's sunny. Bring the batteries down to 50% and solar won't restore them back to full without help.

[fudge_brownie]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

A good description of AGM’s, however I have not read anything to support your experience that less than 100% charge increases the failure rate.

I came across an interesting discussion on the sailing forum that talked about chargers and got into overcharging and undercharging AGM batteries. Here is a link, to a somewhat heated discussion.

What I came away from the linked discussion is that AGM batteries are not to be equalized and the best charging is going to be done with a temperature compensated charge/controller. Depending on the battery brand you are using, it appears that the “lame WFCO controller will provide the correct voltages, albeit not temperature compensated.

I happen to run a temperature compensated solar controller, however, once set up it is not something one can observe. Too hot is bad on AGM’s.

[Lanark Camper]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

A good description of AGM’s, however I have not read anything to support your experience that less than 100% charge increases the failure rate.

It does not increase the failure rate it shortens the life of the battery.

A battery manufacturer may rate a battery at 100 Ah and will to run 400 cycles before it reaches an Ah capacity of 80 Ah. (being charged to 100% SOC after each cycle).

But if it never gets up to a 100% SOC charge during each of those 400 cycles it will be down to 80 Ah in 200 or 300 cycles.

Of course as the battery capacity goes down then each cycle of discharge becomes deeper and generally the deeper the discharge the more quickly the batteries capacity is reduced.

The 100 Ah battery was only discharging to 50% SOC but with an 80 Ah capacity its now discharging to 37% SOC. And it's even worse if the battery isn't receiving a full charge each cycle.

The battery manufactures representatives I've talked to at trade shows have all told me that their AGM's maximum life occurs when they are recharged to 100% SOC after each cycle. And above all they should never be allowed to sit at less than 100% SOC, that's not such a big issue as the have a low self- discharge rate IF they are left with a 100% SOC.

So if the trailer is parked for a while, the battery cable should be removed, and be charged to 100% (this may take 24 hrs or more). The AGM's generally require a higher charging voltage, typically 14.7 V or more if the temperatures are low.

If the batteries will be maintained with a solar controller or maintainer the voltage should be checked and compared to the battery manufacturers specified charging voltage.

I have personal experience with Lifeline and Odessey AGM's. I've called the factory and talked to the technical support staff about how to maintain the batteries. That's where my information comes from.

The way to keep AGM's charged is with a big charger. They will accept almost as much current as you will give them. A 100 Ah AGM battery can be bulk charged at 100 Amps. However it can still take hours to get to that final 100% SOC.

The AGM Odyssey battery owners manual I have states, "To get long life from the ODYSSEY® battery, it is important that the battery is kept near a full charge, approximately 12.8V."

I may be completely wrong on all this. I found a lot of this information out after after killing a very expensive set of AGM's on my boat, the second set I babied but they did not have near the life span predicted by the manufacturer. I think for some uses AGM's are great but for off grid daily use maybe not the best and not worth the additional cost.

In the end I went back to 6 V wet cells in boats. That is what I ordered for our new Escape 17B we have on order.

Just my experience with these batteries, yours may be the complete opposite and I'll believe everything you tell me.

Bob

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by elongest

Maytag and GE are making the old school models with full filling tubs and agitators. I was shopping for a washer last week. ....

Speed Queen makes *AWESOME* old school washing machines that will last 30+ years like the *old* Maytags did. They are built like a tank, their transmission and motors are industrial grade. You'll find these at an old fashion independent appliance store, NOT at any of the big-box chains.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Speed Queen makes *AWESOME* old school washing machines that will last 30+ years like the *old* Maytags did. They are built like a tank, their transmission and motors are industrial grade. You'll find these at an old fashion independent appliance store, NOT at any of the big-box chains.

I have a set of Speed Queen washer/dryer in my home. They're now 23 years old. I do laundry typically on Sundays. Every time I lift the lid on the washer, I talk to the machine and threatened it... if it doesn't keep working, I'll turn it into a fire pit So far, so good

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Lanark Camper

It does not increase the failure rate it shortens the life of the battery.

A battery manufacturer may rate a battery at 100 Ah and will to run 400 cycles before it reaches an Ah capacity of 80 Ah. (being charged to 100% SOC after each cycle).

But if it never gets up to a 100% SOC charge during each of those 400 cycles it will be down to 80 Ah in 200 or 300 cycles.

Of course as the battery capacity goes down then each cycle of discharge becomes deeper and generally the deeper the discharge the more quickly the batteries capacity is reduced.

The 100 Ah battery was only discharging to 50% SOC but with an 80 Ah capacity its now discharging to 37% SOC. And it's even worse if the battery isn't receiving a full charge each cycle.

The battery manufactures representatives I've talked to at trade shows have all told me that their AGM's maximum life occurs when they are recharged to 100% SOC after each cycle. And above all they should never be allowed to sit at less than 100% SOC, that's not such a big issue as the have a low self- discharge rate IF they are left with a 100% SOC.

So if the trailer is parked for a while, the battery cable should be removed, and be charged to 100% (this may take 24 hrs or more). The AGM's generally require a higher charging voltage, typically 14.7 V or more if the temperatures are low.

If the batteries will be maintained with a solar controller or maintainer the voltage should be checked and compared to the battery manufacturers specified charging voltage.

I have personal experience with Lifeline and Odessey AGM's. I've called the factory and talked to the technical support staff about how to maintain the batteries. That's where my information comes from.

The way to keep AGM's charged is with a big charger. They will accept almost as much current as you will give them. A 100 Ah AGM battery can be bulk charged at 100 Amps. However it can still take hours to get to that final 100% SOC.

The AGM Odyssey battery owners manual I have states, "To get long life from the ODYSSEY® battery, it is important that the battery is kept near a full charge, approximately 12.8V."

I may be completely wrong on all this. I found a lot of this information out after after killing a very expensive set of AGM's on my boat, the second set I babied but they did not have near the life span predicted by the manufacturer. I think for some uses AGM's are great but for off grid daily use maybe not the best and not worth the additional cost.

In the end I went back to 6 V wet cells in boats. That is what I ordered for our new Escape 17B we have on order.

Just my experience with these batteries, yours may be the complete opposite and I'll believe everything you tell me.

Bob

My takeaway is why would I buy very expensive batteries that seem to require such a finicky charge regimen or risk failure? For most folks needs here it seems those cheap Costco Interstates do in fact Rock!