Frameless Window Failure

[thiggins]

ETI told us at our June 21' orientation: "do not over-tighten them". So we try to use "just enough" tension to keep them closed, no more. We love the frameless windows. Our old Casita had sliding windows that couldn't be opened in the rain, which really stunk, and made for some very uncomfortable hours in a stuffy camper in the rain.

No more, as we love to keep all the windows open now, even in the rain !

[RHStools]

I am glad to hear that they think they discovered the cause for the failure (overtightening). But when I heard the 20% failure rate that was a big negative for me. One of the reasons I am considering Escape end Casita is the fact that they have had such good records for the absence of failures as compared to many other brands. 20% is not a one off failure. Modern day adhesives are certainly available now to make anything stick together so the window mfr. needs to come up with a permanent solution as well as one for the units in the field.

[suncoastdancers]

ETI were quite accommodating. They are replacing three of the four small Windows. One has completely separated. The other two are starting. It was not very evident on inspection however I was able to slip a banknote between the outer pane and the gasket along the length of the bottom. These are starting to fail.

Only the small split windows seem to be a problem. All the other windows on my trailer are OK.

The question in my mind is "Has Hehr fixed the problem?"

[suncoastdancers]

This one is just starting to delaminate.

[suncoastdancers]

Originally Posted by RHStools

I am glad to hear that they think they discovered the cause for the failure (overtightening). But when I heard the 20% failure rate that was a big negative for me. One of the reasons I am considering Escape end Casita is the fact that they have had such good records for the absence of failures as compared to many other brands. 20% is not a one off failure. Modern day adhesives are certainly available now to make anything stick together so the window mfr. needs to come up with a permanent solution as well as one for the units in the field.

Agree. If I tried to ply apart a properly made frameless window, I would be willing to bet that the glass would shatter. I would expect the winding mechanism to fail before the panes separate.

[Bakes99]

Originally Posted by suncoastdancers

This one is just starting to delaminate.

Does that qualify for a replacement?

[suncoastdancers]

These are supposed to be sealed units. Of course, the manufacturer has the final say. ETI has contacted Hehr and they are being replaced under warranty. IMHO the window is going to delaminate completely in time.

I am one month away from the end of my warranty. If the first window had not failed so catastrophically, I would never have known about these other two failures.

Again ETI is handling the replacement. The technician told me that the warranty on the replacement will be another year.

[RHStools]

Don't some manufacturers of RVs use acrylic type windows which have an air pocket in the middle? While I was searching for an RV I seem to remember seeing that style more and more.

Since I do not own an Escape unit yet I have not seen these windows up close and personal but I am assuming they are all glass. So if some RV brands use these acrylic windows and some use glass, I wonder why they have each chosen different style windows. What I seem to have found in my search for the perfect RV is that once a component mfr. has a winning design (like refrigerators, furnaces, vent fans, etc., ) they tend to be used by everyone because they tend to be the best of breed for whatever component they represent. Similar to the way computer manufacturers selected their disk drives, and power supplies etc.
So it would be interesting to see who else uses these Hehr windows and how long they have been out there as compared to the acrylic windows.

[cpaharley2008]

I have had the acrylic windows in my Lance trailers, they are for larger windows and are nice, but can easily be scratched which is permanent damage. The glass units, albeit smaller are not easily scratched.

[J&B Mitt]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

This is inconsistent with other information that has been reported. Tammy was quoted as stating the frameless thermal failure rate at less than 1%, which would also be much closer to the rate of failures reported here.

The 'rate' isn't frozen. The failures continue to occur. OUR failure rate is now 200%.

Like parfsten and Bakes99, we now have a failure of our REPLACEMENT (bathroom) window.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by J&B Mitt

... The failures continue to occur. OUR failure rate is now 200%.

Like parfsten and Bakes99, we now have a failure of our REPLACEMENT (bathroom) window.

So all of your original windows failed, all were replaced, and all of the replacement windows failed? That would be 200% of the windows in your trailer failing.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by RHStools

Don't some manufacturers of RVs use acrylic type windows which have an air pocket in the middle? While I was searching for an RV I seem to remember seeing that style more and more.

Since I do not own an Escape unit yet I have not seen these windows up close and personal but I am assuming they are all glass...

A common brand is Dometic; they have the acrylic window line formerly known as Seitz. Yes, the "frameless" windows used by Escape have glass panes, presumably in aluminum frames. In both cases, the moving part is only the glazing material and hardware, with no other frame.

The Dometic windows (and similar units of other brands) have two acrylic panes, fused or bonded together at the edge; as Jim noted, acrylic is relatively easy to scratch. All that I have seen are top-hinged, and they commonly come with an integrated blind and screen system. They were common in Europe long before they appeared in North America, but have become more common here over the last decade or so. I have seen reports that in some conditions they can suffer heat damage and can go yellow with time.

The Dometic windows have polyurethane frames, and so depend on the wall for rigidity. It is possible - although this is only speculation on my part - that with a single wall of moulded fiberglass Escape my prefer the rigidity of the aluminum frames. It also seems possible to me that if the Hehr window frame flexes with the wall, it would cause problems for the bonding of the glass panes.

[suncoastdancers]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

A common brand is Dometic; they have the acrylic window line formerly known as Seitz. Yes, the "frameless" windows used by Escape have glass panes, presumably in aluminum frames. In both cases, the moving part is only the glazing material and hardware, with no other frame.

The Dometic windows (and similar units of other brands) have two acrylic panes, fused or bonded together at the edge; as Jim noted, acrylic is relatively easy to scratch. All that I have seen are top-hinged, and they commonly come with an integrated blind and screen system. They were common in Europe long before they appeared in North America, but have become more common here over the last decade or so. I have seen reports that in some conditions they can suffer heat damage and can go yellow with time.

The Dometic windows have polyurethane frames, and so depend on the wall for rigidity. It is possible - although this is only speculation on my part - that with a single wall of moulded fiberglass Escape my prefer the rigidity of the aluminum frames. It also seems possible to me that if the Hehr window frame flexes with the wall, it would cause problems for the bonding of the glass panes.

Looking at the small windows on my unit, only the inner pane seats to the wall when closed. The outer pane does not contact. There is a gap on the sides excluding the top. Over tightening would not pry apart the panes.

The larger windows have a weather strip along the sides (not bottom). As with the small windows, only the inner pane seats to the wall.

The window does of course, come with an aluminum frame for the wall opening. It looks quite substantial well attached to the fiberglass wall.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

A common brand is Dometic; they have the acrylic window line formerly known as Seitz. Yes, the "frameless" windows used by Escape have glass panes, presumably in aluminum frames. In both cases, the moving part is only the glazing material and hardware, with no other frame.

The Dometic windows (and similar units of other brands) have two acrylic panes, fused or bonded together at the edge; as Jim noted, acrylic is relatively easy to scratch. All that I have seen are top-hinged, and they commonly come with an integrated blind and screen system. They were common in Europe long before they appeared in North America, but have become more common here over the last decade or so. I have seen reports that in some conditions they can suffer heat damage and can go yellow with time.

The Dometic windows have polyurethane frames, and so depend on the wall for rigidity. It is possible - although this is only speculation on my part - that with a single wall of moulded fiberglass Escape my prefer the rigidity of the aluminum frames. It also seems possible to me that if the Hehr window frame flexes with the wall, it would cause problems for the bonding of the glass panes.

Hi Brian what I always thought . I didn't feel the frameless windows were appropriate for installation on our trailers . Maybe better on thicker side walls . But then we still don't don't like how much they open vs. sliding windows for ventilation . Pat

[suncoastdancers]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

Hi Brian what I always thought . I didn't feel the frameless windows were appropriate for installation on our trailers . Maybe better on thicker side walls . But then we still don't don't like how much they open vs. sliding windows for ventilation . Pat

I would not go that far. I believe that the problem is predominantly with the small split windows. No one has posted on this forum a failure on any of the full pane window models.

Still, not much reassurance if you have the 17 ft model with 4 of these suspect windows, like me.

I don't want to discourage anyone now ordering from going with the frameless option. Especially if you are not getting the suspect window size.

Further clarification. The frameless option will be available next year with the carefree awning. I saw one at ETI. Just be careful to close your passenger side windows before retracting the awning.

[cpaharley2008]

So the awning would have to be open in order to open the 2 windows? Seems like a bad combo..

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

But then we still don't don't like how much they open vs. sliding windows for ventilation . Pat

Methinks you have that backwards. The awning has more open area, thus better ventilation.

That said, they both work great. I have never had need for all the windows to be open at once with either style. Having the MaxxFan requires little open venting area as well.

[suncoastdancers]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

So the awning would have to be open in order to open the 2 windows? Seems like a bad combo..

I think with the awning closed, some of the windows may not fully open. "May" because I did not try them. Normally there is not a lot of room between the awning post and the side wall. I will be able to check this next week when I take my trailer in for repair.

The real danger of course comes with closing the awning on the fully extended windows. Perhaps the ETI crew have already considered this.

[wetzk]

I was looking at my windows since you folks succeeded in making me a bit paranoid.
Anyway I was looking at the bottom edge and I wonder if someone were to make a thin stainless steel clip or clips that we could place along the bottom if it would help prevent glass separation. It could have adhesive on the surface that is against the glass to hold it in place. I do not think it would need much force to just hold the parts in place. I tried a 1mm piece of metal in there just to see and the window closed fine. There are 2 small bump stops on the small windows exterior glass and the the inner meets a foam seal.


Edit, I bring that up because when our two windows failed I wrapped electrical tape around the lower part of the windows twice and it held the two glass parts together.

[wetzk]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

Hi Brian what I always thought . I didn't feel the frameless windows were appropriate for installation on our trailers . Maybe better on thicker side walls . But then we still don't don't like how much they open vs. sliding windows for ventilation . Pat

I do not know about the large windows but the small aluminum not plastic frame is very rigid. The others are aluminum framed too.