Generator vs. Solar recharge

[Centex]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

You could always sell the generator to help pay for the solar option. Once I got solar I never used a generator again. If needed there are always electric hookups.

Well, not always

YMMV but sometimes folks may find the compromises involved in generator operation are less severe than the compromises involved in camping where electric hookups are available. Please note I recognize and absolutely respect that no one should ever foist the compromise of generator operation (noise) on any un-receptive camping neighbor.

While respecting that ETI's expanding options on the solar-front (as well as the ongoing rapid evolution of offerings in the RV-solar aftermarket in general) are reducing the need for generator or shore-power dependency, the current economics are still quite burdensome for we who have occasional 'need' (OK, 'want') of air-conditioned comfort in our remote travels.

I appreciate the perspective that a generator has a role to augment solar. I'm among those (confident I'm not alone) who will likely find that augmentation more attractive than what's involved in supporting all of my energy demands ('wants') with a high-capacity (and very expensive) RV solar-system for quite some time to come.

A two-pronged approach with solar capacity to meet ongoing 'base' needs, and a generator (distinct from hookups) for occasional augmentation, has rational attraction from both an economic and logistical perspective for some of us.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Centex

...
Well, not always
...

A good example are national park campgrounds. Rarely are power hookups available, plus generator hours are highly restricted.

So if your power needs are only supplied with a generator you are basically tied to the campground during the specified hours. Personally I don't find this particularly appealing - but based on recent observations apparently lots of campers don't mind.
--
Alan

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Even that paradigm is slowly changing. For a pretty penny Escape is now offering up to four lithium batteries (almost 400 usable amp-hours).

Dave, the key words here are “pretty penny.” I’m not going to spend the money to get 400 usable amp hours considering how many times more expensive than my EU2000i. And the Honda generators expected lifetime is far greater than any lithium battery. Now a fuel cell......

[Ron in BC]

I find this a strange thread in this day and age. Specifically whether to have solar or not and more specifically considering using a generator instead.

I've had over 40 years of living on 12 volts first on boats and later RVs. In the early years it would have been a dream to have the kind of solar that we now have available. I've had solar since the first very expensive, very low capacity panels first became feasible in the late 80s.

I have a nice inverter generator but its' chances of going RVing with me, are slim, very slim.

Ron

[gbaglo]

Don't forget that a generator ( used or not ) requires maintenance. You have to drain the fuel or the carb will gum up and you have to run the genset from time to time.

I've purchased Aspen gas which has a long, stable life. But, it's not cheap.
My solar panels, on the other hand, only ask for sunlight.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Dave, the key words here are “pretty penny.” I’m not going to spend the money to get 400 usable amp hours considering how many times more expensive than my EU2000i. And the Honda generators expected lifetime is far greater than any lithium battery. Now a fuel cell......

Until they make large sized (more than a couple of amps output) fuel cells that run on propane, I'm not all that interested. Carrying compressed hydrogen to "fuel" a fuel cell?

[Centex]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Don't forget that a generator ( used or not ) requires maintenance. You have to drain the fuel or the carb will gum up and you have to run the genset from time to time.

I've purchased Aspen gas which has a long, stable life. But, it's not cheap.
My solar panels, on the other hand, only ask for sunlight.

Even Honda on the EU2xxxx now has a valve to allow 'run-dry' while there's still gas in the tank (I had to add that capability to my ancient EU2000's). IME that makes carb gum-up a thing of the past, eliminating the need for awkward tank-draining or even occasional running (mine have sat unused for many months and still fire-up and run no problem with residual regular pump-gas in the tank).

Solar is great, no question, and now at a relatively reasonable price it can meet many if not most 'base' Escape RV requirements.

But it does require sun (weather or the good-fortune of heavily-shaded campsites can impinge on that); and it simply cannot, at a 'reasonable price', meet all RV electrical demands (air conditioning). Generator maintenance can be minimal with prudent care and feeding (whether on gasoline or propane), just like many of the 'appurtenances' that go with RVing. Yes, there are other compromises that go with generator use, just as there are with hookups.

Everyone's wants, needs, use-habits, etc can and do vary. While sharing each of our experiences is valuable for folks, it strikes me as silly to advocate that the solution that works for any one of us is 'The Way' to go for everyone (a few posts seem to imply that, IMO).

One size does not fit all (thank goodness!)

[Vermilye]

I have never "needed" a generator even when I had the stock pair of flooded lead acid batteries, although I carry a 900/700 watt propane only as an emergency recharging back up. I have 320 watts of solar on the roof & a portable 160 watt panel.

I have gone as long as 91 days in a row of dry camping with the combination, again only running the generator to exercise it. I do tilt the rooftop panels in the winter with the low angle sun.

I switched to a pair of 100 amp hour lithium to stop the propane detector from sounding, lower weight, and extend capacity. So far, a big improvement over the flooded batteries.

[75thRanger]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

You could always sell the generator to help pay for the solar option. Once I got solar I never used a generator again. If needed there are always electric hookups.

I like the non-electric spots (-$) at my COE fishing holes and I've not needed my generator since I got my solar Escape but it 'feels good' to have it. 😊

[Hawkeye Ed]

Originally Posted by thunderworks

How long does a generator have to run to recharge batteries? If we are camped where there isn't shore power, how often would you have to run a generator to recharge to run the water pump, LED lights, etc? Would this be a daily requirement?

I know there are plenty of variables here, but I'm looking for broad-brush guidance.

R.

We were in a similar situation when ordering our 5.0: moderate 12 volt usage, no need for an inverter, already own a small generator and have had previous experience with solar.

Our approach was to buy two Lifeline GPL-4CT AGM batteries to install in a double-sized battery box that ETI installed for free in exchange for them keeping the regular battery in the single box that comes standard. Having plenty of battery capacity to begin with seems to be the best value for your money.

Our batteries give us 220 amp hours of 12 volt battery capacity. That's enough for 3 or four days of moderate electrical usage without discharging the batteries below the 50% state of charge recommended for long battery life. That includes using my CPAP every night with the heater on. Most of the time, our style of camping lets us plug in to shore power about that often to completely recharge.

We have had rooftop solar before but didn't order it for our 5.0. That's mainly because most of our camping is in the shade. If we regularly camped out in the open, or if we were on the road a lot with rooftop panels exposed to direct sun, we might have gone with 100-200 watts of solar since that would nicely keep the batteries topped off in that situation.

We are still in the market for portable solar that would allow for sunny charging while the 5.0 is parked in the shade. But we haven't settled on the right combination of price, size and technology yet and aren't in any big hurry.

Since we have the generator, we bring it along for the occasional times we've camped long enough to need to run it for 2-3 hours to restore most of the battery charge. That's not very often in our case but it's good insurance. I have a love/hate relationship with generators. I am glad we have one but find them noisy and obnoxious.

Anyway, I hope our experience and perspective helps.

Ed

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I carry a 900/700 watt propane only as an emergency recharging back up.

How is that generator working for you? Have you used it enough to form an opinion?

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

How is that generator working for you? Have you used it enough to form an opinion?

So far, so good. I've only put a couple of hours on it, most of them using an electric hedge clipper around the yard. Light enough that with a 1 pound disposable tank attached it is easier than hauling out a bunch of extension cords.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Until they make large sized (more than a couple of amps output) fuel cells that run on propane, I'm not all that interested. Carrying compressed hydrogen to "fuel" a fuel cell?

The somewhat practical alternative is a fuel cell that runs on methanol. They have very low output, but the idea is that they can run at any time (up to continuously) with no noise concern, so total energy output in a day can keep up with demand. The two big problems are buying methanol fuel (they want it to be very pure, and even ordinary grade methanol is not a routine gas station product), and the high cost of the fuel cell. They're also bulky. The best-known brand is EFOY.

I can see a methanol fuel cell as a "cloudy day" backup to solar, for someone who always wants independence and can afford it, and can fit meet their requirements with the output of their solar system on sunny days. One EFOY unit could produce as much energy in a day as an Escape-size solar installation in excellent solar conditions.

A direct-reforming fuel cell running on methane (natural gas) can work well, but is probably not practical in the small size wanted in an RV... and you still don't want to be looking for compressed natural gas filling stations. A similar fuel cell could run on propane, but I'm sure fuel pre-processing would be required to remove the crap in retail LPG; it would be interesting to see if anyone has tried this.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The somewhat practical alternative is a fuel cell that runs on methanol. They have very low output, but the idea is that they can run at any time (up to continuously) with no noise concern, so total energy output in a day can keep up with demand. The two big problems are buying methanol fuel (they want it to be very pure, and even ordinary grade methanol is not a routine gas station product), and the high cost of the fuel cell. They're also bulky. The best-known brand is EFOY.

I can see a methanol fuel cell as a "cloudy day" backup to solar, for someone who always wants independence and can afford it, and can fit meet their requirements with the output of their solar system on sunny days. One EFOY unit could produce as much energy in a day as an Escape-size solar installation in excellent solar conditions.

A direct-reforming fuel cell running on methane (natural gas) can work well, but is probably not practical in the small size wanted in an RV... and you still don't want to be looking for compressed natural gas filling stations. A similar fuel cell could run on propane, but I'm sure fuel pre-processing would be required to remove the crap in retail LPG; it would be interesting to see if anyone has tried this.

I'm not asking for much - all I want is a fuel cell like the one that Chevy put in their 2008 Chevy Equinox. 100KW in a package the size of a bread box. I talked with a group of their engineers that attended the New York State Fair when it was released, and they were very proud of them. Of course they were over $1,000,000.00 for each, and ran on pure compressed hydrogen, but I can dream that someone would find a way to run the equivalent on propane. I don't even need anything near 100KW, (although a bit more than that would start to look like a neat replacement for gasoline for my tow) but far more than any of the methanol based fuel cells I've found.

I don't expect it any time soon, but one can wish!

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Don't forget that a generator ( used or not ) requires maintenance. You have to drain the fuel or the carb will gum up and you have to run the genset from time to time.

I've purchased Aspen gas which has a long, stable life. But, it's not cheap.
My solar panels, on the other hand, only ask for sunlight.

And some of us have converted them to run on propane. I haven’t figured out how to drain the propane from the carburetor or how to get the gummy propane residue cleaned out! Yes, I laboriously change the oil every once in a while, but after doing the labor-intensive, extensive maintenance of an oil change it provides power after sundown, when my solar panels are asking for sunlight. And I have learned that “ask and ye shall receive” doesn’t always compute in the kingdom of solar generation! But seriously, generators are sometimes a necessary evil, but not really evil if they are not disturbing anyone else. I never take mine camping, even if boondocking because I avoid camping in excessively hot or excessively cold climates. But evacuation for a storm, fire, foreign invasion (I don’t mean Canadian snowbirds or migrant farmworkers!), or civil unrest is a different thing.

[UncleTim]

Over the last 17 nights I had a chance to watch energy consumption on our 5.0. We would start each night fully charged when the Sun went down.

All that we ran at night was the Max Fan, the heater (which does rely on the batteries) and the water heater and pump. We generally do not plug in computers, phones or other machines like CPAP. So not a lot of energy drain.

Every morning, before Sunrise, I noticed the battery level down to between 72% to 78%. Coffee is made by boiling water and pouring into a Melita filter, so no energy there. I run a few 12 lights at night / mornings when I can't sleep or get up early.

Usually the batteries are fully charged by 10 am. I wait to charge power supplies until the batteries are fully charged as well as skateboard, scooter and amplifier batteries. They are very big batteries.

Mostly the solar panels (2 x 180w) work so well I don't suffer from power anxiety at all. I am thankful for that because I hate that.

So most of the time, solar covers my needs.

However, heating pads use a lot of energy. Air conditioning needs 30 amps. I see a need for this, once in a while, since I am a shoulder season camper and seem to run into vastly varying conditions between mountains and deserts. And running the microwave after dark seems to present problems too.

I will say this; the air condition fan is way too loud to be on all the time.

[cpaharley2008]

Yes, I learned from my first Escape, the 12v heat pads on the grey and fresh tanks should only be used while hooked up with shore power. Thus I never ordered that option again nor were they missed as the on board furnace kept those tanks from freezing in addition to the spray foam underneath the trailer.

[Small but Sweet]

A third option is to have neither! We are prewired for solar but have no panels so far, and no generator. Our camping style is either state parks with electric hookups, or off the grid for a few days at a time. On our 4-day off-grid trips so far we barely make a dent in the battery charge level (charged at home before the trip). We don’t use AC or any appliances. Others have advised me that by being mindful of usage habits, we can stretch it out to a week on battery and propane only.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I'm not asking for much - all I want is a fuel cell like the one that Chevy put in their 2008 Chevy Equinox...

The modern equivalent is the fuel cell from a Toyota Mirai, available with whole used car attached for about one percent of the cost of that million-dollar prototype; it put out 114 kW from 37 litre (1.3 cubic feet) volume (plus supporting equipment) and 57 kg mass (of just the fuel cell stack). Toyota has been building them for so long that they're on their third generation of fuel cell cars; Honda and Hyundai make them as well. Fuel cells stacks are batteries (a bunch of cells linked in series), so one could use a shorter stack for the same current at lower voltage, and only about 5% of this stack would be needed to produce a few kilowatts at RV battery voltage. Still hydrogen, though... that's been an issue since fuel cells were first used in vehicles over half a century ago.

There are hydrogen fuel cells sold for residential use (presumably in some experimental project) with lower output, but unless hydrogen fuel cell vehicles become common they will be useless for an RV... and if you have a fuel cell (or any other hybrid) vehicle, you don't need a fuel cell in the trailer.

By the way, a hybrid tow vehicle could be a very effective generator for the trailer, but very few people tow with hybrids.

[Iowa Dave]

I’ve not used a generator in a campground. I own a couple though. If you are without electricity at your home for 11 days you will be glad you had some auxiliary power. One positive is that the suitcase generators are a lot quieter than the “frame” generators that people widely used years ago as opposed to the few you hear now.
Iowa Dave