Gray tank sensors

[MVA]

Originally Posted by splicer

MVA,
What is the model number of your panel? Mine is M1860 (mfg date is 06/2021). The fresh and grey indicators work fine, but the black indicator only works to 1/3. Dustin sent me a new resistor pack but the problem is still there. I get the same resistance reading on the old and new packs.

I did not check the model number of the KIB panel. If the gray tank is fine and the black reads 1/3 when physically empty, I would look at two things.

• If you are comfortable with DC wiring, turn off the power in the trailer, pull the KIB out of the cabinet, swap the gray and black tank wiring, turn power back on. If the gray tank now reads 1/3 full and the black empty, then the problem is likely to be the probes. If there is no change in the display (black still reads 1/3 full, gray empty), then it is likely the display unit (main board). Wago connectors are great for troubleshooting electrical problems like this since you can make/break wire connections multiple times. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B094DLHQ7T

• To clean the probes in the black tank, I have used two methods. At a FHU campground, after dumping the black tank, I fill the black tank via the toilet fill valve with water and dump again. That usually solves the problem. I have used a cleaning wand like https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Straigh.../dp/B000BUQOCC.

Hope that helps.

[MVA]

Originally Posted by 2Travelers

MVA, your experience and findings suggest and reinforce the need for regular, periodic cleaning of the gray tank to help prevent scum build up (and the associated increase in resistence between the probes that leads to false readings).

What cleaning method and frequency would you recommend? GEO? Liquid gel dishwasher detergent? Oh, I re-read your posts and see that you had been using the GEO method which eventually failed, would the dishwasher detergent be a more effective treatment to avoid the build up?

Any additional insight is appreciated as I'd rather not have to cut into my plumbing system to clean these probes. That was quite an effort and creative solution.

That is a great question. We plan to use only Dawn dishwashing detergent from now on. Might help. Also, we had dumped the gray tank when not full. The trailer design problem is twofold; (1) that there is no easy way to access the gray tank (like the blank tank via the toilet discharge) for cleaning; (2) the probes on our E19 are mounted next to the gray tank discharge drain line so soap scum will accumulate there as the tank drains. The inside of the gray tank wall on the other side of the trailer was significantly cleaner.

Per your question, we will use Dawn, dump when full, and see how this proceeds. Cutting the gray tank line and installing a Fernco connector was not too difficult if you have experience with plumbing. That would allow for periodic cleaning. If this persists, I may install probe sensors on the back of the tank away from the drain. That should solve the design problem.

YMMV

[splicer]

Originally Posted by MVA

I did not check the model number of the KIB panel. If the gray tank is fine and the black reads 1/3 when physically empty, I would look at two things.[LIST]If you are comfortable with DC wiring, turn off the power in the trailer, pull the KIB out of the cabinet, swap the gray and black tank wiring, turn power back on. If the gray tank now reads 1/3 full and the black empty, then the problem is likely to be the probes. If there is no change in the display (black still reads 1/3 full, gray empty), then it is likely the display unit (main board). Wago connectors are great for troubleshooting electrical problems like this since you can make/break wire connections multiple times.
Hope that helps.

Thanks for the Wago link. I don' think the probes are the problem. The black tank has never been half full. I can always look down the hole. I pulled the KIB out, what a mess of wires.
Thanks again for your help.

[2Travelers]

Originally Posted by MVA

Per your question, we will use Dawn, dump when full, and see how this proceeds. Cutting the gray tank line and installing a Fernco connector was not too difficult if you have experience with plumbing. That would allow for periodic cleaning. If this persists, I may install probe sensors on the back of the tank away from the drain. That should solve the design problem.

YMMV

Thanks. I'm not sure what we are using now but will switch to Dawn. It can't hurt and will likely help to delay and maybe prevent any problem onset. Gray tank capacity is often our limiting factor and being confident in knowing the level is important to us.

I can handle many basic plumbing tasks (dad was a plumber and I couldn't help but learn a few things) so I won't hesitate too much if I need to get in there for a more thorough cleaning. Thanks again for the detailed assessment and solution(s).

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by 2Travelers

Thanks. I'm not sure what we are using now but will switch to Dawn. It can't hurt

I put dish washing liquid in the dishwasher once. Just once.

The kitchen filled with suds a foot deep.

[bobwirtz]

I also chose the SeeLevel system and so far (13K miles, at least 50 campsites) our gray tank monitor is still incorrect. Escape told me to completely fill and empty the tank 8-10 times and that would resolve the problem. I have done that, and the monitor still shows anywhere from 15% to 22% after the tank is emptied. I have pretty much given up on hoping that the problem will be resolved.

[Steve Clark]

Thank-You MVA, for your exhaustive efforts and write up! We have always used Odorlos or Happy Camper in our Gray Tank, and find the gauge is most accurate after the trailer has been stationary and level for a few days. This now makes total sense with your findings of clean AND dry sensors! We will be on the lookout for a product that is both safe for the system, friendly to the environment, and effective at keeping soap scum off the sensors and sidewalls in the first place!

Cheers To You! 🍺

[BobG]

bobwirtz - Don't give up. I am in the same boat. My grey tank sensor has the same problem but shows 33% when empty. I never know when it is full. I was told to do the same thing as you and have used the tanks every day for 16 weeks and do not notice any change in the sensors. All showers have been in the trailer too. No camp showers so the tanks have been getting cycled about once a week. We need to keep Escape focused on the problem. I have been talking to them since I picked up the trailer and the readings have not changed since then. I will be contacting then in about a week.

[Jean and Dale]

We have the same problem. Our sensor reads 26% when ithe gray tank has been emptied.

[brroberts]

Our gray, with Seelevel, has always been between 8-17. Otherwise the Seelevel works well. I think, based on the poor drainage of the E19 gray tank, that it simply does not fully empty unless the drain is intentionally sloped way downhill. By doing that, I have achieved 3 once or twice. Usually I just leave it at 8 and roll. 100 is not quite come up in the shower level, but close. Fresh will go a good bit above 100, and empty is empty. Black is pretty accurate from 0-100. Black occasionally shows 50 when empty, but eventually self corrects with use.

[MVA]

As a followup to post #14 below, we have modified how we are using the gray tank to maintain the probe sensor function. After a 5 week road trip, the gray tank sensors have worked perfectly. I thought this may be helpful to other owners. YMMV

As a start, we stopped using bar soap and started using liquid soap exclusively. If you have used bar soap, and your sensors are not working, you may need to clean the interior of the gray tank around the probes per my previous post #14. Soap in hard water will precipitate forming soap scum, and the soap scum will cause erroneous readings by the probes. We fully use the trailer; shower and sink. We are now using “liquid soap” which is typically a detergent chemically and does not form typical soap scum. We switched to a body soap for the same reason. We do use shampoo in the shower. We use Dawn Powerwash to minimize suds. These combinations of changes have resulted in maintaining the function probe level indicators in the gray tank.

[Carmel Clown]

Maybe this would work.
https://youtu.be/DvVGBFdJ_vo?si=uJtr2jx7lkdixTCJ

[MVA]

Unfortunately the KIB panel does not have trim potentistats like in the video. That would if it did.

[C&G in FL]

Regarding the possibility of dirty sensors vs. defective board in the monitor. For anyone else having this problem, I can attest that while I suspect that scum on the sensors is most likely the cause of tank monitoring problems, the board can go bad. A few years back, my gray tank was reading full when it was bone dry. I tried every cleaning method known to no avail. A call to KIB customer service was disappointing in that I was told they were no longer manufacturing the board in my 2015 Escape’s monitor. Fortunately, my son is an electrical engineer who among other things, designs circuit boards. I sent the board to him and he mapped it, and replaced a 49 cent ($0.49) chip on the board and sent it back. It has performed flawlessly ever since. So the moral of the story is that in some occasions, the board can be the culprit.

[iamunique127]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Regarding the possibility of dirty sensors vs. defective board in the monitor. For anyone else having this problem, I can attest that while I suspect that scum on the sensors is most likely the cause of tank monitoring problems, the board can go bad. A few years back, my gray tank was reading full when it was bone dry. I tried every cleaning method known to no avail. A call to KIB customer service was disappointing in that I was told they were no longer manufacturing the board in my 2015 Escape’s monitor. Fortunately, my son is an electrical engineer who among other things, designs circuit boards. I sent the board to him and he mapped it, and replaced a 49 cent ($0.49) chip on the board and sent it back. It has performed flawlessly ever since. So the moral of the story is that in some occasions, the board can be the culprit.

Is the board situated In the readout panel?

[Centex]

Originally Posted by iamunique127

Is the board situated In the readout panel?

In the case of the KIB, yes, here's a pic of the back of the un-modified KIB panel in my 5.0 showing the board.

Quite a morass of wires, eh? This of course includes the pump and water heater-related wires in addition to the tank-level sensor wires.

Having traced (both physically and electrically) all of those wires through my trailer to their destinations, I can attest that the morass continues throughout the trailer; there are an amazing number of confounding junctions and WAGO blocks in those circuits, and they are comingled with other unrelated system circuits. Frankly, I'm amazed that any of it ever works.

[Perry Butler]

We've had 14 previous campers with the simple tank gauge. We've learned to ignore that gauge and just apply simple math. We camp without services all the time and know how to take navy showers.

Our 5.0 had 28 gallons of fresh water, 30 gallons of black, and 28 gallons of grey water. As long as we don't add water to the fresh tank at best we will fill our grey tank to the top. If we flush the black tank we're golden. The longest we've stayed at one spot with our 5.0 is 14 days, and by having navy showers we're golden.

This year we'll be staying 14 days at Lost Dutchman. They have showers, so we'll just dump when leaving.

We're not water hogs and don't carry extra water (except drinking water). I do understand many here need lots of water and may carry a black/grey tote. However, those who have learned how to camp without services gauge their water by how much their camper can handle.

The 40 gallon tanks in the new Escape 25 make water monitoring much easier.

OTOH, those who have/need water services will benefit from this thread.

We're all different.

Works for us,

Perry

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Regarding the possibility of dirty sensors vs. defective board in the monitor. For anyone else having this problem, I can attest that while I suspect that scum on the sensors is most likely the cause of tank monitoring problems, the board can go bad. A few years back, my gray tank was reading full when it was bone dry. I tried every cleaning method known to no avail. A call to KIB customer service was disappointing in that I was told they were no longer manufacturing the board in my 2015 Escape’s monitor. Fortunately, my son is an electrical engineer who among other things, designs circuit boards. I sent the board to him and he mapped it, and replaced a 49 cent ($0.49) chip on the board and sent it back. It has performed flawlessly ever since. So the moral of the story is that in some occasions, the board can be the culprit.

A number of years ago I had a similar problem with the black tank. After replacing all the black tank sensors (with slightly upgraded versions) the "full" LED remained illuminated. Fortunately, I was able to locate a new board and that solved the problem.

The chip in question is cheap and easy to purchase. There are 4 (?) of the same chip on the board and it would be easier to just replace all of them rather than trying to trace one wire thru all the circuits without proper instruments. But the stumbling block is trying to unsolder old chips. That also would be a real pain without proper tools. Do I hear "my son is an electrical engineer" opening up a side gig repairing boards for Escape owners??

[sofmerc]

my black tank sensor hasn't worked since day 1..... The other sensors work well...

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by iamunique127

Is the board situated In the readout panel?

Yes. It is attached by plastic “hooks” to the back of what you look at. If you remove the front panel you will see where the connector attaches to the board.