Grey tank drain line separation

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

I talked to Dustin about our leaky connection and he has started a warranty ticket. He asked me where it was leaking, and from where the water drips out it is most likely the kitchen sink inlet. He sent me a pdf instructions for the grey tank fix.

I can see where this might be a first step to try and unthread the fitting from above but but if the fitting is just cracked it's probably going to break off and then we won't be able to use the kitchen sink.

That's Escape's favourite Sikaflex fix: the piping doesn't have required flexibility, so the threaded joint is strained and leaks; their fix is to add a sealant which should never be used on a pipe thread joint to "fix" it. It is fundamentally the same as on the 21' black tank outlet piping, where it also fails.

My guess is that it would work better to cut the pipe lower, cut out a section so there is a gap, tighten the existing threaded connection into the tank, and bridge the gap with a flexible coupling to take the strain.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That's Escape's favourite Sikaflex fix: the piping doesn't have required flexibility, so the threaded joint is strained and leaks; their fix is to add a sealant which should never be used on a pipe thread joint to "fix" it. It is fundamentally the same as on the 21' black tank outlet piping, where it also fails.

My guess is that it would work better to cut the pipe lower, cut out a section so there is a gap, tighten the existing threaded connection into the tank, and bridge the gap with a flexible coupling to take the strain.

Adding a flexible coupling to the pipe definitely would be a good idea to take the strain off the pipe connection. Rigid piping with no place for give is a recipe for cracked fittings.

Another way.... and my favorite is to get rid of the trap, eliminates the need for a sink vent (that's not there anyway), and add a flex point at the same time by installing a Hepvo valve.

https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...all-12288.html

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Adding a flexible coupling to the pipe definitely would be a good idea to take the strain off the pipe connection. Rigid piping with no place for give is a recipe for cracked fittings.

Another way.... and my favorite is to get rid of the trap, eliminates the need for a sink vent (that's not there anyway), and add a flex point at the same time by installing a Hepvo valve.

https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...all-12288.html

Tom, this link isn't working for me.

Is it working for others?

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by Ronn

Tom, this link isn't working for me.

Is it working for others?

I fixed it.

[Ronn]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

I fixed it.

Thank you Donna

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

I fixed it.

Thanks Donna! Pretty bad when you can't link correctly to your own posts.

By the way, did you ever get a kitchen sink Hepvo installed like you wanted?

[DanandDaphne]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That's Escape's favourite Sikaflex fix: the piping doesn't have required flexibility, so the threaded joint is strained and leaks; their fix is to add a sealant which should never be used on a pipe thread joint to "fix" it. It is fundamentally the same as on the 21' black tank outlet piping, where it also fails.

My guess is that it would work better to cut the pipe lower, cut out a section so there is a gap, tighten the existing threaded connection into the tank, and bridge the gap with a flexible coupling to take the strain.

So your thinking is to not try to remove it but to try and screw the existing fitting in tighter?
I guess if it's not broken then the only other reason it would be leaking is that it was never tightened properly, and if it is cracked or broken it won't matter which way you turn it cause it's going to break.

As far as installing a flexible coupling I think you mean above the floor in the cabinet? below the floor would be better but I don't see how you would without making the hole through the floor quit a bit bigger. How big in diameter are the hepvo fittings? And do you think that would be an effective flex joint?

Either way I'm going to try everything I can to get at this fitting from above. I think if it does snap off when I try turning it I'll try extracting the broken piece from the tank threads with a pipe extractor either homemade or purchased. I only gave a quick look and found this Rigid 1 1/2" pipe extractor, but $125 ouch! https://www.grainger.com/product/RID...tractor-25XC09
If it would work $125 is a small price to pay to not have to remove the spray foam and drop the tank.

Our escape is stored outside under cover so I need to get a space heater out in the trailer first, it was -4 F last night and only got up to about 25 F today. It should be warming up a bit here though in the next few day. I'll report back my findings.

Thanks for all your help everybody!

[SWCO]

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

So your thinking is to not try to remove it but to try and screw the existing fitting in tighter?
I guess if it's not broken then the only other reason it would be leaking is that it was never tightened properly, and if it is cracked or broken it won't matter which way you turn it cause it's going to break.

As far as installing a flexible coupling I think you mean above the floor in the cabinet? below the floor would be better but I don't see how you would without making the hole through the floor quit a bit bigger. How big in diameter are the hepvo fittings? And do you think that would be an effective flex joint?

Either way I'm going to try everything I can to get at this fitting from above. I think if it does snap off when I try turning it I'll try extracting the broken piece from the tank threads with a pipe extractor either homemade or purchased. I only gave a quick look and found this Rigid 1 1/2" pipe extractor, but $125 ouch! https://www.grainger.com/product/RID...tractor-25XC09
If it would work $125 is a small price to pay to not have to remove the spray foam and drop the tank.

Our escape is stored outside under cover so I need to get a space heater out in the trailer first, it was -4 F last night and only got up to about 25 F today. It should be warming up a bit here though in the next few day. I'll report back my findings.

Thanks for all your help everybody!

Hello Dan, Hope you and Daphne are well.

If you end up with male pipe threads broken off inside the female threads in the tank, and if you have room, I suggest you carefully use a hacksaw blade to saw through the male pipe fitting from inside the pipe. If you can saw almost all the way through the inside of the male pipe, in two places about 1" apart, you should be able to take a dull flat blade screwdriver and then pry/knock the smaller piece of male pipe out, followed by the larger piece. If you can lift an edge of the sawn-through-pipe, needle nose vise grips may help twist the pieces out. I have 1/2 mile of PVC irrigation pipe (mostly 4", but some larger and smaller) and I have (unfortunately) too much experience with broken plastic pipe repairs. Good luck.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by SWCO

Hello Dan, Hope you and Daphne are well.

If you end up with male pipe threads broken off inside the female threads in the tank, and if you have room, I suggest you carefully use a hacksaw blade to saw through the male pipe fitting from inside the pipe. If you can saw almost all the way through the inside of the male pipe, in two places about 1" apart, you should be able to take a dull flat blade screwdriver and then pry/knock the smaller piece of male pipe out, followed by the larger piece. If you can lift an edge of the sawn-through-pipe, needle nose vise grips may help twist the pieces out. I have 1/2 mile of PVC irrigation pipe (mostly 4", but some larger and smaller) and I have (unfortunately) too much experience with broken plastic pipe repairs. Good luck.

That would be my second attempt. My first attempt would be to take a needle sharp scriber and pick at the edge of the broken threads. Once the scriber can be worked behind them then a screwdriver can pry outwards and the ring of thread will just collapse. It's just lift it out at the point. Really depends on the situation though.

It'll be interesting to see if the fitting is broken or just wasn't tightened enough.

Ron

[DanandDaphne]

Thanks Bob, we are both well, hope you and Luanne are also well.

Yes I also saw rjreeves used that method I'm just not sure how far down it is below the floor, also it is tight in the corner in the lower cabinet. I know I'm not going to be able to put my head in there to see so the whole operation is going to be done blind. That's why I thought maybe some kind of extractor that you could just shove in and turn.

[DanandDaphne]

This looks like a better extractor than the rigid extractor.
https://www.wttool.com/index/page/ca...gory_id/15711/

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

So your thinking is to not try to remove it but to try and screw the existing fitting in tighter?
I guess if it's not broken then the only other reason it would be leaking is that it was never tightened properly, and if it is cracked or broken it won't matter which way you turn it cause it's going to break.

Yes. It may not need any tightening - I would just ensure that it is tight. Even an undamaged and well-enaged threaded joint may leak if the pipe pulls the thread enough; without the pipe being forced, if the connection is not damaged yet it would likely stop leaking.

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

As far as installing a flexible coupling I think you mean above the floor in the cabinet? below the floor would be better but I don't see how you would without making the hole through the floor quit a bit bigger. How big in diameter are the hepvo fittings? And do you think that would be an effective flex joint?

Yes, in the cabinet. My understanding is that this pipe goes directly into the top of the tank; that means that below the floor is not an option, because the top of the tank is directly against the bottom of the floor (which is just a layer of plywood and layer of fiberglass).

There would be some flex in the type of sliding joints used at each end of the Hepvo fitting; I have no idea if that would be enough. I was thinking of a rubber flexible section.

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

Either way I'm going to try everything I can to get at this fitting from above. I think if it does snap off when I try turning it I'll try extracting the broken piece from the tank threads with a pipe extractor either homemade or purchased. I only gave a quick look and found this Rigid 1 1/2" pipe extractor, but $125 ouch! https://www.grainger.com/product/RID...tractor-25XC09
If it would work $125 is a small price to pay to not have to remove the spray foam and drop the tank.

The extractor looks like something you might be able to rent at a building supply store... and it would be cheaper to rent than to buy, for only a single use.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

There would be some flex in the type of sliding joints used at each end of the Hepvo fitting; I have no idea if that would be enough. I was thinking of a rubber flexible section.

I agree 100%.

For the kitchen sink Hepvo, I replaced all the piping above the grey tank connection with SJ fittings. Just the Hepvo by itself is probably not enough "flex" but with SJ fittings both horizontal and vertical, there is a lot of latitude for pipe movement.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...all-12288.html

For the shower drain Hepvo, just the Hepvo fittings don't have enough flex and I added a rubber flexible section to complete the installation.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...21-a-9445.html

For the grey tank drain, I added a rubber flexible section as well and additional pipe clamps to minimize pipe movement from vibration.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post240325

Adding a rubber flexible section to the piping is definitely a good idea.

[DanandDaphne]

Thanks Brian, you also answered another question I had. I wasn't sure if the tank was all the way up against the bottom of the trailer or if it was mounted to the bottom of the frame making a gap.

I don't think this problem is caused the tank moving and causing stress on the joint especially with the spray foam holding the tank so solidly in place. I think it's more likely a misalignment issue with the hole cut through the floor not lining up with the tank opening so they force it over putting stress on the joint.

After thinking about it how would a flex joint above the floor help? As I see it the movement of the tank in relation to the hole in the floor is what would be causing stress on the pipe. Once it is in the kitchen cabinet it's just between the floor and the sink and the sink in relation to the floor isn't moving.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by DanandDaphne

I don't think this problem is caused the tank moving and causing stress on the joint especially with the spray foam holding the tank so solidly in place. I think it's more likely a misalignment issue with the hole cut through the floor not lining up with the tank opening so they force it over putting stress on the joint.

After thinking about it how would a flex joint above the floor help? As I see it the movement of the tank in relation to the hole in the floor is what would be causing stress on the pipe. Once it is in the kitchen cabinet it's just between the floor and the sink and the sink in relation to the floor isn't moving.

The tank won't move much, but the piping under the sink can be misaligned, and can move with deflection of the sink in use.

[Rick G]

First time post, I am very interested in this thread as my wife and I have a completion date in early April for a 21 NE and are interested in getting the spray foam insulation option.

In my opinion ABS male adapters are designed for stationary structures and should not be used in mobile vehicles. Tapered Male threads are the weakest link in a vibrating / moving trailer sewer piping systems. The Canadian electrical code does not allow the use of PVC male adapters when entering a metal female threaded hub because of the expansion and contraction (moving pipe) that occurs during temperature changes. This is not exactly the same situation however the idea is the same. You have ABS piping vibrating / moving at different rates and direction than the tank, which is causing tension on the pipe and failure at the connection or the weakest link.

The electrical code solution is to use a female adapter with a metal threaded close nipple for a more robust connection (Section 12-1112). I am not sure how the metal (brass close nipple) will work with the ABS pipe and sewer water in the long term.

I am thinking of asking ETI to incorporate the female adapters combined with the metal (brass) close nipple as well as strategically placed flex couplings and pipe supports. Care would have to be taken not to over tighten and stretch or deform the female threads and use sealant as required.
Before we make the big decision on the spray foam insulation I would like to see a solution for this problem. What do you all think of this solution?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Dcboyd

To date there have been no responses to the additional strapping. Sales manager said she would resubmit request again to production.

Originally Posted by Dcboyd

Their answer:
Quote.
Unfortunately, at this time they will not be able to undertake either one of these modifications for you.

I wouldn't sweat the additional tank straps. That isn't the problem in my opinion. How the piping connections are being made to the tanks and the stress on these connections seems to be the issue.

[Dcboyd]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I wouldn't sweat the additional tank straps. That isn't the problem in my opinion. How the piping connections are being made to the tanks and the stress on these connections seems to be the issue.

I am not going to sweat it. My 21C will arrive next month. They have agreed to install a Hepvo valve in lieu of a PTrap sandwiched between two flexible couplings. Lol. UPS freight material cost $101.00 to cross border. It’s worth it to me to get rid of something that should not be there in the first place.
I will install an additional strap at midpoints between the two existing as I feel there is to much unsupported distance between the two. This will be done before the unit is ever used.
It will give my engineering mind some peace.
Several other flexible couplings will be installed elsewhere in the underbody lines.

[Greatboatz3]

Originally Posted by Dcboyd

I am not going to sweat it. My 21C will arrive next month. They have agreed to install a Hepvo valve in lieu of a PTrap sandwiched between two flexible couplings. Lol. UPS freight material cost $101.00 to cross border. It’s worth it to me to get rid of something that should not be there in the first place.
I will install an additional strap at midpoints between the two existing as I feel there is to much unsupported distance between the two. This will be done before the unit is ever used.
It will give my engineering mind some peace.
Several other flexible couplings will be installed elsewhere in the underbody lines.

Dcboyd,
I assume ETI is willing to install the Hepvo valve on the shower/bath drain line. Is that correct? I have an E21C on order. Can I ask what parts you are needing to supply and what ETI is charging for the installation?

Thanks Jim A.

[Dcboyd]

Originally Posted by Greatboatz3

Dcboyd,
I assume ETI is willing to install the Hepvo valve on the shower/bath drain line. Is that correct? I have an E21C on order. Can I ask what parts you are needing to supply and what ETI is charging for the installation?

Thanks Jim A.

Yes that is correct. I ordered a Hepvo valve from Amazon, 2 1 1/2” flexible couplings from local plumbing warehouse, and a couple of U58017 11/2 HXSJ TRAP ADAPTER ABS from Amazon, plus a section of SJ pipe connection to use with the
Adapters. I am not sure all of this is needed and told them to put unused pieces in storage locker.
Sent a picture of what one of the members did and ask for them to do the same.
There was no additional charge to add the valve.