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Old 03-18-2019, 06:20 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by tdf-texas View Post
Just curious - when you tested the voltage at the battery, did you connect the voltmeter to the battery terminals or the lugs attached to the battery terminals?

THe reason I ask is that I had battery cables from the factory that showed voltage loss when I tested at the battery lugs. After cutting off the Escape crimped lugs and crimping new Ancor lugs on with a hydraulic crimper - my voltage loss problem went away.
...
I will second that. Put the leads of your multimeter right on the actual battery post when testing a heavy load. The wires could be corroded under the insulation, some of the strands could be broken, the crimp could be bad, etc. These are hidden faults and could lead to a voltage drop at the inverter. If the battery voltage stays reasonable then strongly suspect the wire and/or connectors.

Since most folks don't have a crimper you can explore an online source. I have used Genuinedealz with good results. See the photo for a sample of a custom made wire. Note! The sizes and colors are purely random and probably won't fit. You need to measure before ordering.

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Old 03-18-2019, 07:47 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by thumper-tx View Post
I load tested each 6v battery individually and together as a 12V system and load test show batteries are good. The load tester is a Schumacher Model BT-100.
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Originally Posted by thumper-tx View Post
I checked the specifications on that load tester and it applies a 50 amp load to a 6V battery and a 100 amp load to a 12v battery.
The 100-amp load is suitable, but what voltage does this tester consider "good"? These are usually intended to test starting batteries, and an engine will likely crank fine at a voltage which the inverter considers marginal. From the photo in an online listing for the BT-100, it looks like 9.5 volts is in the "green" for the lowest 12-volt battery band... but that's not nearly enough for the inverter.

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Originally Posted by padlin View Post
Low voltage warning alarm is at 11.2v. Inverter shutdown is at 10.5v.
Given those thresholds, and the explanation of the meter display in the BT-100 manual, to be good for the inverter the batteries (together) would need to test comfortably into the green for the top band (labelled for 1000 CCA batteries)... or just reading it as a voltmeter, you need to maintain over 11.2 volts at full load.

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I am not sure what gauge the inverter to battery cables are but they are are only about 18" long.
So wire gauge is not likely an issue, but as already mentioned every connection (crimped or bolted) is a potential trouble area, so voltage loss in the wiring is still a possibility.

You could just do the load test with the same tester at the inverter input terminals (with the inverter off), and see what voltage makes it the inverter under this known load. If that's much lower than the voltage during a load test directly on the battery terminals, you have a wiring issue. If it's nearly the same in both places, and too low in both, you only have a battery problem.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:07 PM   #43
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Under a 100 amp load, the two batteries hooked together maintained a 11.7-11.8 voltage for the full 10second load test. That is plenty voltage to run the inverter. I will load test it next by clamping to the cable ends that connect to the inverter but not hooked to the inverter. This should tell me if there is a voltage drop due to the clamps.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:52 PM   #44
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Experience with my current setup tells me that a 1500 watt inverter will be inadequate so I'll be replacing it with a 2000 watt. I'll be using 4/0 cable to eliminate cable resistance. The crimper that TDF-TEXAS linked to isn't intended for larger than 2/0 but seems to accomplish the job tho it pinches the sides of the lug.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:27 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by StillCampin View Post
Experience with my current setup tells me that a 1500 watt inverter will be inadequate so I'll be replacing it with a 2000 watt. I'll be using 4/0 cable to eliminate cable resistance. The crimper that TDF-TEXAS linked to isn't intended for larger than 2/0 but seems to accomplish the job tho it pinches the sides of the lug.
Going to 4/0 cable is a really large jump in cable size from the 2 AWG that Escape installs! A 4/0 battery cable is 3/4" in diameter. You are right that resistance would not be a problem.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:43 PM   #46
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2000 watts is 166 amps at 12 volts. pulling /that/ much current from a deep cycle battery will heat it up quite quickly, most data sheets for deep cycle don't show performance curves much above 100A, and the higher the current drain, the lower the amp*hour rating... The Trojan T105 shows that at 100A, you get 100 minutes to 100% discharged (a state you never want to be in), while at 200A, you get about 30 minutes... At these discharge rates, the output voltage drops to 10.5V for a 12V dual T105/GC-2, and at the 200A load, the battery rating is something like 66 AH rather than 225 AH for a 20 hour load (~ 12 amps).
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by tdf-texas View Post
Going to 4/0 cable is a really large jump in cable size from the 2 AWG that Escape installs.
I was going to use 2/0 fused @ 300 but my research indicated that 2/0 would work but with no expansion possibility. Instead, I'll use 4/0 between battery & 400 amp fuse to the distribution point. The inverter itself will be 4/0 fused @ 300. If I ever go to a bigger inverter all I'll need to do is change the inverter fuse.

I like to overdo things. I intend to install an automotive subwoofer under the 5.0 steps and that means running upwards of 20 amps for 40-50' round trip. I'll use 4 ga tho 6 probably would have an acceptable loss.

One of these days I'll post pics of the prep work I've been doing creating "drop-in boards" to accommodate the electrical changes I'll be doing to group switches near the entry. These boards will allow me to cut installed wires and extend them to the relays that my "remote" switches control. (My build sheet isn't due for another 2 months but I have these boards completed and tested.)
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:19 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
2000 watts is 166 amps at 12 volts. pulling /that/ much current from a deep cycle battery will heat it up quite quickly, most data sheets for deep cycle don't show performance curves much above 100A, and the higher the current drain, the lower the amp*hour rating... The Trojan T105 shows that at 100A, you get 100 minutes to 100% discharged (a state you never want to be in), while at 200A, you get about 30 minutes... At these discharge rates, the output voltage drops to 10.5V for a 12V dual T105/GC-2, and at the 200A load, the battery rating is something like 66 AH rather than 225 AH for a 20 hour load (~ 12 amps).
Good info and it probably helps explains why I can't use my current batteries & 2000 watt inverter to run my microwave or it shuts down. And here I thought it was the cable that I know is too small.

My eventual system may end up with multiple lithium batteries. The Battleborn max out at 100 amp draw so 2 minimum but likely 3-4 if I can find room. Hopefully the price will continue to drop.

If it doesn't work there are non-powered ways to thaw & reheat. Original meal prep requires the generator anyway for the induction burner, countertop oven/air fryer, Instant Pot, etc. (I have not used a propane burner for years except to purge the lines.)
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:09 PM   #49
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Experience with my current setup tells me that a 1500 watt inverter will be inadequate so I'll be replacing it with a 2000 watt.
...
If you really need a 2000 watt inverter then you might consider a 24 volt unit. (Powered by batteries that are separate from the trailer 12 volt battery.)
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:20 PM   #50
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If you really need a 2000 watt inverter then you might consider a 24 volt unit.
I'm basing my need on the amperage draw reported by my EMS. When running my microwave I've seen it at 16+ amps. Of course, that includes everything including battery charging that would not be present when using the inverter. But the extra 500 watts/4.x amps could make the difference in being able to quickly reheat something in the microwave or much longer on the stove.
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:33 PM   #51
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But the extra 500 watts/4.x amps could make the difference in being able to quickly reheat something in the microwave or much longer on the stove.
Just my personal opinion of course, but my first choice might be to get a smaller microwave. Second choice, 2X12V in series for 24 volts (dedicated to the microwave only), and third, 4X6V in series-parallel for 12 volts, and last, 4X12V in parallel for 12 volts. AGM if possible for their lower internal resistance.

Good Luck!
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:38 AM   #52
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I agree with Alan's assessment, even if you stick with a 12 V inverter.

Many of the help forums strongly suggest going to 2 12V in parallel or 4 6V series/parallel battery configurations to lower source resistance if you are going to add a microwave. This is one of the few times a pair of 12V batteries can perform better than the traditional golf cart batteries since the internal resistance of the 12V batteries in parallel will have lower internal resistance.

While using a pair of 6V batteries with a low power (600 watt) microwave works, it is on the edge of the battery capacity. Just going to a larger inverter won't help with the limitations of battery capacity.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:45 AM   #53
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Thanks, Alan & Jon.

I bought this particular microwave specifically for the camper a couple years ago so I am used to it so as long as it keeps working it is what I'll have - even if I can only use it with external power. That just duplicates what I do with my existing setup.

But, I'll be changing to 12 volt Lithium sooner than later. Too bad that ETI must put in the vented box that the BattleBorn batteries do not fit in.

Since I will be replacing & rearranging a fair amount of the optional stuff under the U-shaped dinette I may be able to fit more than 2 batteries and with lithium being so light it won't severely unbalance the trailer. (Replacements/additions include: batteries, inverter, solar controller, Lagun mount, adding a 2nd smaller inverter and adding a bunch of stuff to support grouping displays/controls above the fridge & grouping switches near the entry).
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:06 PM   #54
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Thanks, Alan & Jon.

I bought this particular microwave specifically for the camper a couple years ago so I am used to it so as long as it keeps working it is what I'll have - even if I can only use it with external power. That just duplicates what I do with my existing setup.

But, I'll be changing to 12 volt Lithium sooner than later. Too bad that ETI must put in the vented box that the BattleBorn batteries do not fit in.

Since I will be replacing & rearranging a fair amount of the optional stuff under the U-shaped dinette I may be able to fit more than 2 batteries and with lithium being so light it won't severely unbalance the trailer. (Replacements/additions include: batteries, inverter, solar controller, Lagun mount, adding a 2nd smaller inverter and adding a bunch of stuff to support grouping displays/controls above the fridge & grouping switches near the entry).
While it will cost you an extra $100.00 over the standard size, Battleborn makes a model (100Ah 12V GC2 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery) that is an exact replacement for the GC2 6v batteries. They are 12V so a pair in parallel gives you 200 amps of Lithium in the same space as the original pair of 6V batteries.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:13 PM   #55
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While it will cost you an extra $100.00 over the standard size, Battleborn makes a model that is an exact replacement for the GC2 6v batteries.
Thank you. I had ignored that particular battery due to expecting the shape to result in it being too large. Now, looking at the specs. I see that it is perfect.

I just emailed ETI to see if these will be acceptable. Then I could add additional if my mods end up allowing the space.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:52 PM   #56
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As it was said before, if you stop your present style and adopt propane, a lot of your electrical rearranging and multiple batteries will go away. there was an all electric trailer a couple of years ago with 4 lithium batteries and 120v refrigerator. It was sold within 6 months. Propane for cooking and cooling and heating is safe, been in use longer than before all of us were ever born. Try it and you will like it, guaranteed, to paraphrase that Joe Namath commercial.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:28 PM   #57
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As it was said before, if you stop your present style and adopt propane, a lot of your electrical rearranging and multiple batteries will go away.
...
Try it and you will like it...
I have been full time in an RV since 12/2008 and part time for years before that. It is just in the past 2-3 years that I've transitioned from propane to electric for my cooking.

I have tried it. I prefer the convection burner, electric fry pan, Instant Pot, air fryer, etc over a gas burner. I prefer my electric countertop oven over a gas oven. I do not "cook" in the microwave but use it for thawing & especially for reheating. 3 (or fewer) minutes to zap a meal beats putting it in foil and reheating in a pan of water similar to a double boiler.

I appreciate that gas can do a lot but some things are just faster, simpler, sometimes yielding better results, if not only practical/possible, with my electric appliances.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:31 PM   #58
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This is one of the few times a pair of 12V batteries can perform better than the traditional golf cart batteries since the internal resistance of the 12V batteries in parallel will have lower internal resistance.
Why would the parallel setup have less resistance, given comparable battery construction and the same total nominal capacity? If the internal resistance of each cell of the 12 volt batteries is twice as high as each cell of the 6 volt batteries (because it has half the plate area), the end result of two 12V in parallel or two 6V in series is the same - the same voltage, and the same internal resistance. Of course the series 6V setup is sometimes hampered by an inadequate cable between the batteries.
  • A cell: resistance = R for 6V, or = R x 2 for 12V
  • A "6 volt" battery (3 cells in series): resistance = R x 3
  • A "12 volt" battery (6 cells in series): resistance = (R x 2) x 6 = R x 12
  • Two "6 volt" batteries in series: resistance = (R x 3) + (R x 3) = R x 6
  • Two "12 volt" batteries in parallel: resistance = (R x 12) / 2 = R x 6
The same pile of lead plates arranged differently but still 6 cells in series overall has the same effect. Different cell materials and construction... well, that's different.

I think this is probably a matter of comparing dissimilar batteries, such as 12 V starting or dual-purpose batteries to 6 V deep-cycle batteries.

A golf cart runs similar maximum current to running a fully-loaded 1500 watt inverter (with three or four times the system voltage in the golf cart for three or four times the power), so the peak current here isn't unreasonable, but it's as high as the golf cart batteries see and of course golfers don't use full power for extended periods. A regular car's starting battery has no trouble supplying a few hundred amps, but runs out in a couples of minutes of doing that.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:38 PM   #59
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While it will cost you an extra $100.00 over the standard size, Battleborn makes a model (100Ah 12V GC2 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery) that is an exact replacement for the GC2 6v batteries. They are 12V so a pair in parallel gives you 200 amps of Lithium in the same space as the original pair of 6V batteries.
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I just emailed ETI to see if these will be acceptable.
If you do this, I suggest making sure that the Escape staff understand that even though they are GC2-sized batteries (which are normally 6V), they are 12-volt batteries and must be connected in parallel (as Jon mentioned). Escape doesn't offer a parallel battery configuration, so this will be non-standard for them, despite the common battery size.
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Old 03-21-2019, 03:02 PM   #60
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If you do this, I suggest making sure that the Escape staff understand that even though they are GC2-sized batteries (which are normally 6V), they are 12-volt batteries and must be connected in parallel (as Jon mentioned). Escape doesn't offer a parallel battery configuration, so this will be non-standard for them, despite the common battery size.
My "question" email to ETI stated: "If ETI will install these (parallel) then I want to drop the ETI batteries and supply 2 of these instead.".

If approved I will make sure the parallel requirement is noted on the build sheet. And if the delivery is in person, esp just prior to delivery of the trailer like the custom rims & tires, I'll put a reminder on the batteries themselves.
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