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02-12-2022, 09:19 PM
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#201
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVA
John,
I have something similar. We have a later version truck; 2015 F150, but your truck may be displaying a similar oddity.
I have an Victron DC-DC converter (non-BT). When the truck is connected (via 7-pin) and started in "park", no current flows (as shown by a battery shunt). When the transmission is moved to a forward drive gear, current flows. When the transmission is then moved back into "park", current continues to flow. Apparently Ford designed the charging circuit to not allow current to flow until the truck is placed in a driving gear. I have duplicated this multiple times so I am confident that it is a real "feature."
I would try to put the truck in drive gear, and since you have a VIctorn with BT, see if current then flows as displayed on your phone.
2 cents
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2002 truck predates 'smart alternators' and the rest of that. The hitch is actually powered if you turn the key to run, even before you start the engine. there's literally nothing in the circuit but HOT ALWAYS -> 40A FUSE -> TRAILER POWER RELAY -> (a few connectors) -> 7 blade receptacle.
this truck is a longbed (8') with a 'supercab' (cab and a half, not a supercrew double cab), so its 21 feet bumper to bumper, hence my estimating around 20 feet of wire from the alternator to the hitch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
BTW, is that "18 gauge" a typo that should be "8 gauge"?
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yeah, oops. edited original. AWG 8.
I think I'm going to snake a sense wire into the ground pin of the connected 7-blade, and run it all the way back to my rear electricals, and there measure the difference between the rear-of-trailer chassis ground and the hitch. also do same thing from the 7-blade to the TRUCK battery. if there isn't more than 1V or so combined offset in the grounds, do the same thing with the + wires. thankfully since that sense wire connected to my Fluke DMM will be drawing microamps, it can be any sort of skinny gauge I want to use. I've been known to use 28 AWG 'wire wrap' for this, but its been decades since I had any WireWrap supplies or tools.
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02-12-2022, 09:45 PM
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#202
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
2002 truck predates 'smart alternators' and the rest of that....
>>>>
yeah, oops. edited original. AWG 8.
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on both counts, good luck with the troubleshooting!
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02-12-2022, 10:13 PM
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#203
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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yeah, phew, 5 volt drop at 15 amps is 0.33 ohms. 45 feet of #8 stranded copper is 0.033.
so I need to find where the biggest voltage differences are under load. I'll start with truck battery - to ground in back of trailer, and then truck battery + to that wire in the back of the trailer, to see if its a 'wire' problem or a 'ground' problem. then I'll repeat these testss from the hitch connector to the back of the trailer, and if that doesn't show it, from the truck battery to the hitch connector.
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02-13-2022, 06:30 PM
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#204
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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ok, looks like 0.6V drop on the ground side from the 7 blade to the ground stud on the back of the WFCO, and a 1.0V drop on the power wire from the 7 blade to where I connected it to the thermal breaker prior to the Orion Tr. that's only 1.6V total, and I'm seeing at least a 5V total drop. both the truck 7-blade receptacle and the trailer 7-blade plug look pretty crusty, I've got a cleaning kit coming in tomorrow, so I'm going to clean it and try again.
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02-13-2022, 07:22 PM
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#205
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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I disabled the low voltage detrection entirely in the Orion, and it was outputting about 15 amps at 13.6V when the input voltage was 9.0-9.1V. I squirted some contact cleaner on the 7-blade and plugged/replugged it a handful of times, and boom 10.0V, Kets seem 13.6V * 15A / 10V == 20A input?!?
I do believe I'll clean it when the kit comes tomorrow and see if it gets better. for sure, after running 20 amps through the 7-blade for a few minutes, it was distinctly warm.
I need to make a 7 blade M to F 'breakout' box where I can test individual signals with the trailer plugged in, that would make this sort of testing so much easier.
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02-13-2022, 11:43 PM
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#206
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Trailer: 19 - 2021
Posts: 167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
btw, Norcold N2175 seems to have drawn about 30 or 32AH in 24 hours on its coldest settings....
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Glad to see you're getting those numbers, as I know there were some that were thinking it was going to be more than that (substantially in some cases).
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02-14-2022, 01:14 AM
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#207
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Maplewood, Minnesota
Trailer: 2021 Escape 21NE
Posts: 239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
I disabled the low voltage detrection entirely in the Orion, and it was outputting about 15 amps at 13.6V when the input voltage was 9.0-9.1V. I squirted some contact cleaner on the 7-blade and plugged/replugged it a handful of times, and boom 10.0V, Kets seem 13.6V * 15A / 10V == 20A input?!?
I do believe I'll clean it when the kit comes tomorrow and see if it gets better. for sure, after running 20 amps through the 7-blade for a few minutes, it was distinctly warm.
I need to make a 7 blade M to F 'breakout' box where I can test individual signals with the trailer plugged in, that would make this sort of testing so much easier.
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Three trailer wiring test sets that you can build:
Three Trailer Wiring Test Sets you can Build.
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02-14-2022, 07:23 AM
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#208
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Rosa County, Florida
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21 Tow: 2024 Toyota Tundra
Posts: 3,097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanerickson
Glad to see you're getting those numbers, as I know there were some that were thinking it was going to be more than that (substantially in some cases).
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Indeed. We will be interested to see your real-world results after you take your reconfigured trailer out for a week or so.
__________________
Mike Lewis
She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie-- propane
Photos and travelogues here: mikelewisimages.com
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02-16-2022, 03:26 PM
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#209
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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lets see, last 44 hours, the fridge used 55 AH, so thats an average of 1.25 Amps, or 30AH per day. Seems pretty consistent.
meanwhile 1pm winter sun on my original 160W poly solar panel via MPPT is giving me about 80 watts, I'll need to look at tthis over the next 48 hours to see what the average daily output is. where the trailer is parked, this time of year, I only get a few hours of low angle sun, its at 40 degrees above the horizon at noon.
power usage without any charging
1pm solar:
I expect well over double this from my 360W monocrystalline panel, am waiting on my FG repair guy to have the time to install it. in the summer, I'm hoping for like 6*300 watt*hours/day.
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02-23-2022, 12:57 PM
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#210
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Trailer: 2015 Escape 21'
Posts: 280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
so, with the Norcold N2175 dc compressor fridge coming tomorrow, and the mobile installer is going to help me fish a wire behind my streetside cabinets+fridge, I had to wrap stuff up.
I ran a new #10 wire from the front junction box to the midships, so tomorrow we can snake it behind the cabinets and to the rear electric area under the dinette bunches, and spliced it to the emergency breakaway power up under the bed, so I can use the existing #8 wire for tow power into an Orion-TR 12/12-18 charge regulator, set for lithium. I will wire this #10 wire through one of the two 30A thermal disconnects.
I connected the existing #8 wire to the other 30A thermal disconnect, and from that to the Orion-TR + Input. I made a #8 wire to go from the Orion - input to my main ground bus.
I replaced the battery disconnect switch with a 250A marine one, wiring the original #8 wire from the WFCO-nee-PD converter to one side, and a #4 to my main positive bus bar on the other. the batteries have 100A fuses, and the PD4655 can easily put out 50 amps charging power nito the batteries,
this pic is from Tuesday, work in progress, under the center section of the U dinette. final wire dressing is being put off until done.
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John, I see where you are connecting the existing #8 wire to the Orion-TR + input and the + and - output to the respective buss to the batteries. Where are you obtaining - input to to the Orion-TR?
__________________
Tom & Linda
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02-23-2022, 03:21 PM
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#211
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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The input to the Orion is the 7-blade 'charge' wire, and chassis ground. This orion is serving to kick up the truck charging power to lithium charging levels, which its done nicely in my couple tests, its putting its full 17-18 amps into the LFP batts, while the input voltage has drooped to 9.5-10V at the Orion (its still 13.6-14.2V in the front of truck, that 3-4 volt loss is due to the combined truck+trailer wiring).
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03-14-2022, 09:59 PM
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#212
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Bozeman, Montana
Trailer: Escape 2017 21'
Posts: 23
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Rubicon,
I'm finally getting ready to install my PD Wildcat converter to upgrade the WFCO 8955 in my 2017 21C. Are the wires you upgraded in this picture 4 AWG? I am hoping to use that same size wire when upgrading the factory 8AWG from the converter to 2 new Battleborn's. If those are 4AWG wires in the DC lugs, did you need to trim any wire strands to get them to fit?
Thanks.
Dan
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03-15-2022, 12:09 AM
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#213
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyfisherdan
Rubicon,
I'm finally getting ready to install my PD Wildcat converter to upgrade the WFCO 8955 in my 2017 21C. Are the wires you upgraded in this picture 4 AWG? I am hoping to use that same size wire when upgrading the factory 8AWG from the converter to 2 new Battleborn's. If those are 4AWG wires in the DC lugs, did you need to trim any wire strands to get them to fit?
Thanks.
Dan
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Dan: If you are referring to my picture in post 34 they are 6 AWG. No strand trimming required. The terminal blocks on our WFCO DC board indicate 4-14 meaning they should accept that range of sizes.
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03-15-2022, 12:44 PM
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#214
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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I left the original 8 gauge wires coming from the wfcos fuse panel to the ground screw, and the cutoff switch which is right around the corner of the back of the wfco. I used 4 gauge from those two places to my main bus bars and 4 gauge to the batteries. Using the original wfco fuse panel, when I have a 50 amp charge coming out of the pd4655 li, the better part of a half volt is disappearing in the 1 in or so from the Plus terminal block connected to the pd4655 power converter to the terminal block connected to the battery positive, and the 2 40 amp fuses between those two blocks. I may decide to go ahead and use the pd4655 fuse panel just to see if it's any better about voltage drop. I didn't replace the wires coming from the fuse panel and going out the back of the power center because I was running out of time and we were leaving on our trip.
Status report after 5 days of camping on Coronado, mostly sunny to totally Sunny each day mid-march Sun angles, my 360 watt panel has produced up to 310 Watts peak, and nearly a thousand watt hours a day, when the batteries are only running down 10% overnight. That is running the compressor fridge on its coldest setting full time, not bothering to use night mode on the fridge, and the usual lighting, furnace fan, etc. We actually have hookups here but I switched off the converter output just to see how good my solar is going to work in Death Valley where we go tomorrow and we'll be dry camping for six nights. I'm totally happy with this setup so far. My original guesstimate was that I would get at least a week of fridge and light power usage without any sun at all and I expect that with rundown batteries I'd see at least a kilowatt hour a day, maybe 1.2 to 1.5. so even if the batteries got totally run down hard, 3 to 5 days of sunshine should fully charge them again.
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03-18-2022, 08:11 PM
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#215
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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Been camping for a few days of Death Valley. Absolutely no cell service or Wi-Fi in the campground, so I don't have hard data, but my 360 watt panel has been out putting easily 300 watts for a good part of the day. My average power usage has only been about 10% of my 5,000 watt hour battery, or about 500 watt hours, and it is fully charged by 11:00 a.m. even on some of hazy day. I've shut off the solar last night and will leave it off tomorrow and the next day and then turn it back on so I will have a battery that's 30% discharged and I can see my total kwh production the next day. With the battery fully charging by noon and with the float stay after the battery is charged running all of the DC for the rest of the day, the solar has been generating almost a thousand watt hours a day, but I think it's good for quite a bit more than that.
Anyways, color me Happy! This thing is working great I would be able to go 10 days with no solar and reasonably careful power usage running the fridge on high the whole time in warm weather. Next step I think I'm going to add a 1500 watt AC inverter, so my wife can run her hair dryer and such. The little 200w DC hair dryer was a total joke as far as she is concerned
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03-18-2022, 08:47 PM
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#216
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Maplewood, Minnesota
Trailer: 2021 Escape 21NE
Posts: 239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
Been camping for a few days of Death Valley. Absolutely no cell service or Wi-Fi in the campground, so I don't have hard data, but my 360 watt panel has been out putting easily 300 watts for a good part of the day. My average power usage has only been about 10% of my 5,000 watt hour battery, or about 500 watt hours, and it is fully charged by 11:00 a.m. even on some of hazy day. I've shut off the solar last night and will leave it off tomorrow and the next day and then turn it back on so I will have a battery that's 30% discharged and I can see my total kwh production the next day. With the battery fully charging by noon and with the float stay after the battery is charged running all of the DC for the rest of the day, the solar has been generating almost a thousand watt hours a day, but I think it's good for quite a bit more than that.
Anyways, color me Happy! This thing is working great I would be able to go 10 days with no solar and reasonably careful power usage running the fridge on high the whole time in warm weather. Next step I think I'm going to add a 1500 watt AC inverter, so my wife can run her hair dryer and such. The little 200w DC hair dryer was a total joke as far as she is concerned
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Congratulations! I've been following your posts. You've put a lot of thought and effort into this project. Lots of great info. Thank you.
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03-26-2022, 02:51 AM
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#217
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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The second full day of charging was clearer, and my panel output 1900 WH!... Very happy with it. Wife wants an inverter that can run her hair dryer.
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03-26-2022, 08:35 AM
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#218
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Site Team
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mid Left Coast, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21
Posts: 5,122
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So, yeah inverters....
I like the idea of an interview with a built-in transfer switch, and I think I want to do a full 1500 watt sustain kind of inverter, so which brands have you guys use for conversions?
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03-26-2022, 09:30 AM
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#219
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
So, yeah inverters....
I like the idea of an interview with a built-in transfer switch, and I think I want to do a full 1500 watt sustain kind of inverter, so which brands have you guys use for conversions?
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Yep, an inverter with built-in transfer switch sure makes for a clean and compact installation. Unfortunately, compared to those without I think you'll find the market selection much more limited in the ~1500W range, expanding a bit as you go to larger nominal Watt capacities.
Certainly not every brand is offered by InvertersRUs, but a decent sample of what's available in the capacity range you seek is listed here. Note this list includes - inverters without transfer switch
- inverters with transfer switch
- inverter / chargers with transfer switch
Take care as you scan the descriptions in this list (or others you'll find when you search for "inverter with transfer switch") to focus on #2 types since you don't need the charger capability of the #3 types which are often included when you 'search' with that term.
Good luck and have fun with your search!
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03-26-2022, 09:37 AM
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#220
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kent, Ohio
Trailer: 2017 21c Sold, 2023 Bigfoot 25RQ
Posts: 1,382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz
So, yeah inverters....
I like the idea of an interview with a built-in transfer switch, and I think I want to do a full 1500 watt sustain kind of inverter, so which brands have you guys use for conversions?
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I can recommend the progressive dynamics 1800 or 2000 watt inverters with transfer switch. I had installed the 1800 watt version and it ran the microwave quite well.
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