lost all power on 4th day : Clueless as to cause!

[dblagsvedt]

THis last week we took our longest extended trip with our new Escape 19. a five day campout outside of Mt.Rainier. We had no previous problem with electrical current or voltage in the previous 4 trips which were all 2-3 days.The weather was in the 90's the whole week so the panels were constantly capturing energy. and For the first 3 days, the controller panel showed 100 % charge, output never was greater than input. By the late morning I; noticed a 90% reading i was not concerned until around 5PM when there was a 55% reading. I start questioning if I am using more electrical power than I was doing the first 3 days. We had temporily turned on water heater /water pump for a couple of hoursand had used A CPAP machine for the previous two night. i cannot imagine that the CPAP machine could have drawn any measurable source. Most of the time the refrig was powered by gas. Anyway in the middle of the night that next morning, there was a warning buzzer from the inverter, a blinking orange light on two top displays, and the controller display showed 0% capacity. No electrical power at all. We left for home on the 5th day, after taking a hike in the morning. When we got home, by 6PM we Noticed that the emergency breakers had flipped to off, Turned them back on, and within 5 minutes. the displays worked again and controller panel showed 65% charge. By the morning, the solar battery were at 100& storagel

So I am clueless as to why this happened since there was no significant change in how we operated our trailer. Reading the user manuals for the GP-PWM_-30-UL and the inverter manual has not been very helpful. I
will check for loose connections at the battery terminals. Appreciate any suggestions. I do not have a strong electrical background ( i understand basic terminology) so some of this technical posts I see on this forum are over my head.

[wackyburggeezer]

Since your CPAP has been powered through a receptacle via the inverter, I suspect that the machine is what drew your batteries down. Can I presume that you powered your 'frig with propane? Are the circuit breakers that you call 'emergency' the two in the separate gray metal box? Sadly, the solar controller is not the optimum tool to determine the state of charge of your batteries. If you have a digital meter capable of reading up to 20 amps, you might want to look at the load that your CPAP is putting on the batteries.

[Rossue]

What batteries do you have?

[dblagsvedt]

(2)6 volt lithuim batteries in series

[kathytony1985]

My husband uses a Jackery Explorer 240 for his CPAP off grid. It starts out at 100% and by morning it is down to 56%. I think your CPAP may be drawing down quite a bit of your batteries.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by dblagsvedt

(2)6 volt lithuim batteries in series

6V Lithiums are not common. What model/brand are they? Far more common are 2 12V lithium batteries in parallel.

[John in Santa Cruz]

what these trailers really need is a shunt based battery monitor. I'm using the Victron SmartShunt, which uses bluetooth and a phone app to display, Victron also has the BVM-712 display panel version (with or without bluetooth). There's plenty of cheaper ones out there...

to install one of these, you disconnect everything from the negative terminal of the battery, connect the 'battery' side of the shunt to said negative terminal, and connect everythign that was connected to the battery to the other side of the shunt. there's also an extra wire that goes to the battery + for monitoring voltage. if you have the variety with a display, you mount the display somewhere convenient, and connect a cable between them

then, you configure the monitor for the type of battery and capacity, like mine is a 12V lithium iron phosphate (LFP or LiFePO4) with a total of 412 Amp*Hour capacity. You fully charge the battery then 'synchronize' the meter, and boom, its good to go. it monitors all current in and out of hte battery and can give you the batteries exact state at any time.

some sample screens from the VictronConnect app that works with the SmartShunt...

[Ops]

Many CPAP machines are actually 12V or 24V DC and have the ability to plug into 120AC with an inverter provided by the CPAP manufacturer. A separate 12V or 24V power plug is often available for these units.
A neighbour was draining his batteries in one night with his CPAP, whereas I could go several nights without draining mine. It turns out he didn't know his machine was 12V adapted to 120AC.
So basically he had two inverters between the batteries and his CPAP machine. One to take the rigs 12V and convert it to 120AC...AND THEN his CPAP machines step down inverter converting it back to 12V DC.

Once he bought a proper power plug to use the trailers 12V DC power directly, he's had no further issues.

[emers382]

I suspect as others have mentioned that the CPAP was the issue for the OP's problem.

Beth's AirSense CPAP is 24v and we bought the (not cheap) 12-24v converter for when we are boon docking. She continues to use the humidifier which draws more and yet we've never had issues with the battery dropping below in the 70s by the morning on our standard Escape supplied 6 volt batteries nor the replacement flooded ones purchased last year.

[dblagsvedt]

I have a RESMED Air Sense 10 CPAP. that runs on 24 volts. So from what folks are saying I should get a CPAP 12-24 volts converter that is compatible with the Res MEd. And I will also need a special plug or will that come with the converter? Thanks for all the feedback from CPAPers. I like most I suspect, am not crazy about CPAP use, but my relationship with my wife significantly improves.

[gbaglo]

Just search Airsense 10 CPAP DC-DC converter. It comes up on Canadian sites for me, but you'll find US sites.

[Steve Clark]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Just search Airsense 10 CPAP DC-DC converter. It comes up on Canadian sites for me, but you'll find US sites.

That’s right, Glenn!

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by dblagsvedt

A local medical supply company forwarded me a manual on using the RESMED DC-DC converter with a stand-alone battery. I am not sure how you connect the special battery cable to the my existing 6 volt solar batteries which are outside the trailer. AM I missing something obvious?

do you have a cigar lighter port somewhere in the trailer? get a cigar plug, connect the DC-DC converter to that, making sure you get + and - correct (the center pin of the cigar lighter plug is +). if the cord isn't long enough, splice some lamp cord, again making sure of polarity (lamp cord, one conductor is ribbed on the outside, and the other isn't, just as long as you use the same one for + on both sides, you're golden).

oh, here's one that already has 10 feet of wire on it, so you could just splice to that using butt crimp connectors....
https://www.amazon.com/Cigarette-Lig...dp/B092HT2182/

or if the DC-DC thing comes with enough wire already attached, just put this plug on the end, again making sure to get + and - correctly wired.
https://www.amazon.com/Carviya-Cigar.../dp/B074W36M7G

[dblagsvedt]

I have a a couple of cigarette lighter port for DC input along with extra AC input. So Duh, on my part, there is no need for any extra battery cables.

[Hawkeye Ed]

Originally Posted by dblagsvedt

THis last week we took our longest extended trip with our new Escape 19. a five day campout outside of Mt.Rainier. We had no previous problem with electrical current or voltage in the previous 4 trips which were all 2-3 days.The weather was in the 90's the whole week so the panels were constantly capturing energy. and For the first 3 days, the controller panel showed 100 % charge, output never was greater than input. By the late morning I; noticed a 90% reading i was not concerned until around 5PM when there was a 55% reading. I start questioning if I am using more electrical power than I was doing the first 3 days. We had temporily turned on water heater /water pump for a couple of hoursand had used A CPAP machine for the previous two night. i cannot imagine that the CPAP machine could have drawn any measurable source. Most of the time the refrig was powered by gas. Anyway in the middle of the night that next morning, there was a warning buzzer from the inverter, a blinking orange light on two top displays, and the controller display showed 0% capacity. No electrical power at all. We left for home on the 5th day, after taking a hike in the morning. When we got home, by 6PM we Noticed that the emergency breakers had flipped to off, Turned them back on, and within 5 minutes. the displays worked again and controller panel showed 65% charge. By the morning, the solar battery were at 100& storagel

So I am clueless as to why this happened since there was no significant change in how we operated our trailer. Reading the user manuals for the GP-PWM_-30-UL and the inverter manual has not been very helpful. I
will check for loose connections at the battery terminals. Appreciate any suggestions. I do not have a strong electrical background ( i understand basic terminology) so some of this technical posts I see on this forum are over my head.

Ed Simmers here, up in Bellingham. Hope to see you on the road or at one of the Escape campouts like at Fort Casey.

Is this correct?:
- You’ve taken 4 trips (2-3 days) with no problems and the only difference here is that this trip was 5 days,
- Your batteries were at 100% for 3 days but then one day the charge went down to 55% at 5 PM. The charge continued to go down to the point that in the middle of the night the inverter buzzed because of low battery voltage and your battery meter showed your batteries were exhausted.
- When you got home the “emergency breakers” were flipped off and within 5 minutes of turning them on you were up to a 65% charge and by morning “the solar battery” was up to 100%.

The most important missing information in your scenario is whether you were plugged into 12O volt AC shore power while camping. If you were, it's no wonder your batteries weren't charging from the shore power if the AC circuit breakers were tripped. If you've always camped without shore power then the fact the AC circuit breaker were tripped wouldn't make any difference in your battery charge level.

A lot of the comments you’ve received in response to your original post focus on your CPAP machine. Basically, the suggestions are that you get the right adapter so you can run your CPAP off your 12-volt wiring so that you can turn your inverter off during the night and save battery state of charge that way. Those are good suggestions but not the explanation for your trouble since on your 4 previous trips the CPAP and inverter didn’t keep your batteries from fully recovering in the sun the following day.

So the solution to your problem isn’t related to the number of days you’re camping but what it is that was different this trip. You say the battery charge went down one day to 55% by 5 PM and in the middle of the night it was exhausted. That sounds like there was some huge DC draw on your batteries that was unlike your previous trips. Is it possible that your refrigerator was powered by your batteries by mistake when AC power is off, rather than propane or alternating current from shore power?

You didn’t say whether you were connected to shore power (120 volts Alternating Current via an extension cord) but I’m assuming so because you say your “emergency breakers” were flipped off. The only circuit breakers in most Escapes are for 120 volt AC electrical loads that are downstream from the shore power connection. You didn’t say which breakers were off, but if your refrigerator was set to run on DC (batteries) instead of propane when 120 volt AC isn’t available, that could exhaust your batteries pretty quickly.

One good place to start would be to figure out why the AC circuit breakers were tripped. Again, not knowing which ones were tripped makes it hard to diagnose remotely, but chances are if more than one were tripped this is a one-time event that won’t happen again if you close the cover to your power center and make sure the trailer’s AC cord is plugged into a reliable shore power outlet.

The only thing I can think of that would draw down your batteries so far in such a short time is the refrigerator. If you have the typical 3-way refrigerator (AC, DC and propane), it cools, counterintuitively, by the electrical supply or propane creating heat. This takes a lot of energy and can run batteries down very quickly. So I’m just guessing here that your refrigerator was set on DC rather than AUTO (which would have switched to propane when the AC power went out) and that ran your battery down.

You will develop a basic understanding of the electrical systems in your trailer over time and don’t need an electrical degree. Every problem is an opportunity to learn something and know how to diagnose problems. So here, you can start with why your electrical 120 volt circuit breakers tripped. If more than one tripped, it was likely because someone accidentally tripped them manually or some problem with the shore power. Then you want to make sure your refrigerator is set to run on propane (not DC battery power) whenever you’re not connected to AC shore power.

Maybe there’s more to the story but just take it one step at a time, eliminating possible problems one by one, and you’ll surely figure it out.

[dblagsvedt]

Heh Ed. Thanks for your words. Let me clarify the scenario. this 5 day trip was strictly solar powered, no shore power. My first four trips have only included one shore power event which was the only other time I used the CPAP. I am very aware of making sure that the refrig is running on propane and that was the case for this trip outside of Mt. Rainier. Un til the morning of the 4th day, my controller was always at 100% charge. After talking with a good f
friends who is a electrical engineer and hearing the responses from the forum, I am going with the diagnosis of CPAP being the problem, that is running the CPAP as if I was home and not using any kind of converter Apparently the Escape inverters are not reallly efficient so getting a DC-DC converter makes sense to me.
Anyway, I just signed up for the Fort CAsey 2023 rally next April last night. Hope to see you there. Take care!

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by dblagsvedt

Heh Ed. Thanks for your words. Let me clarify the scenario. this 5 day trip was strictly solar powered, no shore power. My first four trips have only included one shore power event which was the only other time I used the CPAP. I am very aware of making sure that the refrig is running on propane and that was the case for this trip outside of Mt. Rainier. Un til the morning of the 4th day, my controller was always at 100% charge. After talking with a good f
friends who is a electrical engineer and hearing the responses from the forum, I am going with the diagnosis of CPAP being the problem, that is running the CPAP as if I was home and not using any kind of converter Apparently the Escape inverters are not reallly efficient so getting a DC-DC converter makes sense to me.
Anyway, I just signed up for the Fort CAsey 2023 rally next April last night. Hope to see you there. Take care!

One thing you have to realize is that when you are getting output from your solar panel and it is showing 100% that is based on voltage not actual battery capacity. The % meter will show 100% when the system voltage is above 12.8 volts. Your batteries won't actually be fully charged until the system voltage is close to 13.6 volts.

I have a Breas Z2 travel CPAP running on a 12 volt adapter that I had installed on the bedside of the stove wall in my 2020 Escape 19. It will typically use about 20% of the battery capacity a night. I unplug it during the day to reduce parasitic draw.

Surprisingly the Z2 draws about the same as my old Philips Resperonics that I also used with a 12 volt adapter until it was recalled.

So to summarize you seeing 100% when your batteries are charging does not mean your batteries are at 100%. Your CPAP is using a big chunk of power each night. And your batteries aren't getting fully charged each day.

One other thing I just thought of since my Z2 doesn't have one but my Philips Resperonics did is that 20% per night is without the humidifier on. If your CPAP has a humidifier on that could completely drain your batteries in one night.

[CE Vogel]

The problem here is a lead-acid battery monitor is being used to report the charge of lithium batteries. That doesn't work. Lithium battery voltage is higher than lead acid, so will always show 100% charge until the lithium battery is down to less than 10% charge, at which point a lead-acid monitor will erroneously show about 50% charge. TTMartin touched upon this in his reply. John in Santa Cruz suggests a good way to get correct battery status readings, though it does require adding some equipment. OP must have great solar panels to carry his CPAP machine for four nights, unfortunately his battery monitor was misleading him as to the true battery charge condition.

[Radar1]

My guess is that turning on the water heater (presumably it was running off your inverter) is what killed your batteries. It uses a;most the same amount of power as the air conditioner would.
I use a 12 volt DC CPAP, and it only uses approx 8 amp hours per night (but that's without using the heated humidifier).

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Radar1

My guess is that turning on the water heater (presumably it was running off your inverter) is what killed your batteries. It uses a;most the same amount of power as the air conditioner would.
I use a 12 volt DC CPAP, and it only uses approx 8 amp hours per night (but that's without using the heated humidifier).

No way would water heater run on AC with inverter.