Microwave not getting power? on the 5.0

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Good idea on the GFCI breaker. Just replace the outdoor outlet with a regular one and a GFCI breaker in the power center and you’d be done.

This would solve having to go outside in the middle of the night in the rain to reset it, but it wouldn’t afford any additional protection from GFCI tripping due to outside wetness, as does Tom’s solution, would it?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

This would solve having to go outside in the middle of the night in the rain to reset it, but it wouldn’t afford any additional protection from GFCI tripping due to outside wetness, as does Tom’s solution, would it?

Correct, but I would argue that there is a problem with the outlet installation then if they are a continuous nuisance. My home GFI-protected outlets on the exterior never trip in the rain. Why is a trailer any different?

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Correct, but I would argue that there is a problem with the outlet installation then if they are a continuous nuisance. My home GFI-protected outlets on the exterior never trip in the rain. Why is a trailer any different?

I don’t know. I’ve never had such problems myself, just heard anecdotal accounts from others.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Ron: They apparently have in new trailers. They did in this 2019 21 that I worked on.

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

They do. Panel from our 2017 19. (Ignore the red arrow)

Attachment 42480

Edit: Dave beat me to it [emoji6]

Maybe it needs to be larger. or .......

Ron

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Correct, but I would argue that there is a problem with the outlet installation then if they are a continuous nuisance. My home GFI-protected outlets on the exterior never trip in the rain. Why is a trailer any different?

Gotta agree with you. I've had one on my sundeck for many, many years. It has absolutely no overhang protection and has never tripped. Also ones for the trailer and fish pond with minimal overhang protection and they've never tripped. Just the typical weather proof lids the same as the Escape.

Ron

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

You're not the first folks to be caught out by "those other breakers". Maybe ETI should put a reminder note on the main panel.

Or use a more suitable and accessible panel.

[StillCampin]

Originally Posted by DoriandMena

It was the other pair of 15A breakers under the dinette seat! Thanks a million. Everything is back to normal.

This reminds me of what I found when I opened up that sub-panel while doing some electrical mods in my brand new 5.0:

2 breakers are handling 5 circuits. Take the cover off & look - or just count the wires going into it. 3 on one breaker and 2 on the other. To make matters worse, they are 15 amp breakers. That means the microwave and at least one other outlet are on the same 15 amp circuit. To my mind, a way to guarantee blowing the breaker.

I have not traced the wires except the microwave but I did not like 5 circuits on 2 breakers so I replaced those breakers with tandems. I now have 3 circuits on individual breakers and only one with 2 circuits. Once I identify what each circuit feeds I'll make a final decision which ones to be the double.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by StillCampin

This reminds me of what I found when I opened up that sub-panel while doing some electrical mods in my brand new 5.0:

2 breakers are handling 5 circuits. Take the cover off & look - or just count the wires going into it. 3 on one breaker and 2 on the other. To make matters worse, they are 15 amp breakers. That means the microwave and at least one other outlet are on the same 15 amp circuit. To my mind, a way to guarantee blowing the breaker.

Since the microwave is a high-power appliance, that is a risk; however, it is not unique to the inverter-equipped trailers. Even without the inverter, and so using only breakers in the WFCO panel, the microwave doesn't get it's own breaker, does it?

Originally Posted by StillCampin

I have not traced the wires except the microwave but I did not like 5 circuits on 2 breakers so I replaced those breakers with tandems. I now have 3 circuits on individual breakers and only one with 2 circuits. Once I identify what each circuit feeds I'll make a final decision which ones to be the double.

I assume that this means that two or three wires are going directly into the same breaker terminal, rather than being joined to a pigtail which goes to the breaker. Are the breaker terminals designed and approved for multiple wires into the same terminal? If not, that's an issue.

Other than that, as long as each circuit is wired for 15 amp capacity, I'm not sure that this is much better. This is the same, on a load basis, as having the same outlets strung out in a daisy chain with only one wire reaching the breaker. It's good to avoid having all of the load supported by this panel on one 15 A breaker, but regardless of the number of circuits the total load is still limited by the single breaker feeding the transfer switch from the main panel (which if I recall correctly is 30 A) and the main breaker and shore power cord (30 A). While using the inverter, the inverter itself is an even lower limit.

[StillCampin]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Since the microwave is a high-power appliance, that is a risk; however, it is not unique to the inverter-equipped trailers. Even without the inverter, and so using only breakers in the WFCO panel, the microwave doesn't get it's own breaker, does it?

No it doesnt, and being a high draw appliance it should. And, per US household standard - and other US-made RVs I've owned, kitchen circuits are normally 20 amp and the microwave is often on its own breaker. I knew going into this that the 1500 watt inverter supplied by ETI would be inadequate for comfort with my microwave (I've seen 14 amps drawn from my generater (per ems) for just the microwave (and whatever else). But finding 15 amp breakers feeding multiple circuits (even if just 1-2 outlets per circuit) is not something I want to contend with, thus my change to tandem breakers.

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I assume that this means that two or three wires are going directly into the same breaker terminal, rather than being joined to a pigtail which goes to the breaker.

No, they are properly pigtailed with just one wire per breaker. After my switch to tandems, except for the one that had 2 (microwave & ?), they are now on individual breakers.

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Other than that, as long as each circuit is wired for 15 amp capacity, I'm not sure that this is much better. This is the same, on a load basis, as having the same outlets strung out in a daisy chain with only one wire reaching the breaker. It's good to avoid having all of the load supported by this panel on one 15 A breaker, but regardless of the number of circuits the total load is still limited by the single breaker feeding the transfer switch from the main panel (which if I recall correctly is 30 A) and the main breaker and shore power cord (30 A). While using the inverter, the inverter itself is an even lower limit.

This is all true but in my mind multiple "circuits" on one breaker instead of daisy-chaining is strange. ETI only uses 15 amp wire and multiple daisy-chained outlets would be on 20 amp wire thus multiple runs kinda makes it safer but increases the possibility of blowing a breaker. ETI is also using more wire than daisy chaining would so that likely increases the cost. And the additional work & material required to do the pigtails also increases cost. I suppose that with the rv-specific outlets that are used daisy chaining may be more difficult so there may be a savings for ETI. They could at least document for the customer what outlets are on what breaker so the customer can be prepared to avoid an unexpected overdraw situation.

My change to tandem breakers in the subpanel was a minor cost for eliminating potential individual circuit overdraws (like occurred to the OP). And my new PD power center, with the split buss providing a built-in subpanel, allows me to add additional dedicated circuits without further crowding the ETI subpanel. I'm still limited by the pedestal & my main breaker but I won't loose an outlet because I did not know that I had the crock pot on the same breaker as the microwave.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by StillCampin

... And, per US household standard - and other US-made RVs I've owned, kitchen circuits are normally 20 amp...
...
ETI only uses 15 amp wire and multiple daisy-chained outlets would be on 20 amp wire...

The idea of using 20 amp circuits for kitchens is relatively new, and it was brought in because the previous scheme (split receptacles fed by dual 15 amp circuits) was not compatible with GFCI outlets. Even with the new practice, most of a house has 15A circuits for lighting and receptacles. But regardless of the vintage or circuit capacity, multiple outlets per circuit is normal in a household, except for some specific applications... such as that microwave, which I think we all want on a dedicated circuit (which only needs to be 15A).

Originally Posted by StillCampin

I suppose that with the rv-specific outlets that are used daisy chaining may be more difficult so there may be a savings for ETI.

I don't think so: the aggravating self-contained devices (SCD) are just pressed onto the cable, which can run through to the next annoying self-contained device, with the device installed as either in-line (on a continuous cable) or as a splice; what is more difficult is splitting a circuit at an SCD. My guess is that their layout was chosen for installation convenience, rather than efficiency of cable use... but that's only a guess. By the way, SCDs are popular in RVs, but I don't think they're limited or specific to RVs.

[steve dunham]

1 )The code requirement ( NEC ) for 2 separate & remote 20 amp kitchen appliance receptacle circuits dates back as far as the late 1960’s
2 ) Many if not most travel trailers are wired in 14/2 NM , rated at 15 amps
3) Trailers are not required to meet all the requirements of the NEC . They are required to meet Section 300 wiring methods
4) Receptacles / switches are designed so only certain size wire can be used with the device
5) Self contained and back wired ( push in terminations ) receptacles / switches are noted for having termination problems and self destructing . The code no longer allows these types of terminations to be used with # 12 wire .
6) “IN MY OPINION “ the branch circuit wiring method employed by Escape is mostly safe ,adequate ,and code compliant ( Terminating 6 wires on a circuit breaker is not Kosher )
That being said the system calls for improvement in wiring methods , equipment , installation and consistency.

** The kitchen receptacle in our 2018 Escape 21 was over heating when a load was applied
The problem was traced to faulty wiring connections at the kitchen receptacles
I repaired the connections but because it is a self contained receptacle the problem will return . A bad design is a bad design
Putting that kitchen receptacle on a 20 amp circuit would not solve the problem and woulld probably make it worse .

From my experience and having had to repair fire damaged trailers , the self contained receptacle is problem waiting to happen . How it ever passed code and UL amazes me

Casita uses 12/2 NM (20 amp) wiring in their trailers but they use the standard residential boxes and receptacles.
It is nice being able to run your coffee pot and toaster at the same time and not trip the circuit as we do in our Escape

The code differentiates between safe and adequate and for good reason
Everything that is safe is not necessarily adequate for the purpose
It’s kind of like a tow vehicle discussion

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

1 )The code requirement ( NEC ) for 2 separate & remote 20 amp kitchen appliance receptacle circuits dates back as far as the late 1960’s

Interesting. The split 15A receptacles were still normal practice in Canada at least into the late 1970's, and likely beyond.

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by StillCampin

This reminds me of what I found when I opened up that sub-panel while doing some electrical mods in my brand new 5.0:

2 breakers are handling 5 circuits. Take the cover off & look - or just count the wires going into it. 3 on one breaker and 2 on the other. To make matters worse, they are 15 amp breakers. That means the microwave and at least one other outlet are on the same 15 amp circuit. To my mind, a way to guarantee blowing the breaker.

I have not traced the wires except the microwave but I did not like 5 circuits on 2 breakers so I replaced those breakers with tandems. I now have 3 circuits on individual breakers and only one with 2 circuits. Once I identify what each circuit feeds I'll make a final decision which ones to be the double.

That is similar to what I found. I have 1 breaker running the microwave outlet, the interior and exterior GFCI outlets and two additional interior outlets I requested for a total of 5 outlets being fed via that single 15 amp breaker. The extra outlets loose much of their value when they are all on the same circuit, especially with the microwave. I'm debating switching the two breakers to tandems to reduce this a bit.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by MikeS

That is similar to what I found. I have 1 breaker running the microwave outlet, the interior and exterior GFCI outlets and two additional interior outlets I requested for a total of 5 outlets being fed via that single 15 amp breaker. The extra outlets loose much of their value when they are all on the same circuit, especially with the microwave. I'm debating switching the two breakers to tandems to reduce this a bit.

Makes a big difference splitting the circuits between four breakers.

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Makes a big difference splitting the circuits between four breakers.

That is not helping me put off the job!

[StillCampin]

Originally Posted by MikeS

That is not helping me put off the job!

Once you have the tandem breakers it is easy.

Ensure the inverter is off.
Turn off the sub-main 30amp breaker in the main panel.
Check to ensure outlets are dead.
Remove cover from subpanel.
Remove the 2 breakers.
Remove the wire from the breakers.
Remove wire nut from the grouping with 4 wires.
Discard the pigtail.
Connect the remaining 3 single wires to individual breakers.
Connect the remaining pigtail to a breaker.
Put the breakers back in the subpanel.
Put cover back on sub panel.
Turn on the submain in the main panel.

In my case the original top breaker had the microwave and one other. If you want to ensure the microwave is by itself you will need to identify its wire to put on a separate breaker and create a pigtail with 2 of the others.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Interesting. The split 15A receptacles were still normal practice in Canada at least into the late 1970's, and likely beyond.

Some inspectors interpreted the two circuit rule as meaning both circuits had to be present at every kitchen counter top receptacle thus split wired receptacles .
That meant there were 2 circuits at each receptacle and there was 240 VAC present at every receptacle . When home owners went to replace the receptacle they would shut off a SP breaker and assume the receptacle was dead but half the receptacle was still live
We were then required to put both circuits on a 2 pole breaker so if you shut off the breaker both halves of the receptacle were deenergized .
Now you are still required to have 2- 20 amp circuits but you alternate the receptacles so both circuits are present along the kitchen counter but there is only 120 VAC at each receptacle.
I have not installed split wired receptacles in homes since the early 80’s

Switched receptacles are still common in residential construction ( 1/2 of the receptacle is hot all the time and the other 1/2 is switched — Both halves are on the same circuit / breaker