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Old 09-26-2014, 06:24 PM   #41
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Look on page 40 of this pdf. It is from 2010 and the low end of the Tropical class might have changed from +16degC to +18degC

http://ec.europa.eu/danmark/document...28_6481_en.pdf
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:25 PM   #42
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My understanding is that the Climate Class applies to all types of refrigerators manufactured in the European Union, not just where they are sold. This appears to be something dictated by the E-U.
The existence of climate classes will set a minimum for performance - no reason to hobble an appliance to work more poorly. The E-U standards also address energy consumption, but whatever the control logic the cooling unit will presumably determine the energy consumption to meet the required cooling load.

Regulations rarely restrict the performance of what is built for export, and even if the Euro refrigerator rules apply to units Dometic makes in Germany for North America, they could just designate this market as Tropical. Since the labels in the appliances don't mention the climate class, I don't think they're subject to any E-U rules... but it's an interesting theory.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:18 PM   #43
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I'm not surprised that Dometic is trying to help the cooling with different doors. It is probably the lowest cost solution for them. The doors on the 8xxx units are filled with blown-in, expandable foam, probably not a very good insulator. If you pull your front cover off the door you can see the injection port in the center and the gas vents located throughout. Dometic always mentions their "Pentane-blown foam" in the specs on their "T" rated units. Pentane is a gas that is produced during the chemical reaction when the foam is being injected and it does not conduct heat well at all. Therefore, Pentane-blown foam is a superior insulator. I will bet the doors Reace is getting from Dometic are made for "T" rated units and filled with Pentane-blown foam. With some good insulation added around the existing 8XXX units we have this may be a viable solution.
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:05 PM   #44
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I posted some time ago that Dometic is planning to ship some fridge doors that have a much higher r-value that the standard door supplied in North America. I have been patiently waiting for them. Today I was informed that these doors are different in some way or another for the fridges in Europe. They are waiting for some forming materials to be shipped over to start making the doors in the US. Although these doors may not look or completely fit correctly, as long as I can get a seal, I have asked for a door for each fridge to be shipped so I can at least try them out.
Once I receive them, I can put a couple of trailers into our fiberglass booth which is heated and I can raise the temperature up into the 90's over a weekend to test new door vs old door in a controlled environment. At least we would know if it is worth the wait or not.

Reace
Reace - you are truly going above and beyond on this issue! You are the best!
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:26 PM   #45
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Thanks again to Reace for the updates and tirelessly working this issue. I think the redesigned doors will help. For those new to the fridge topic we are all fully aware of the manufacturers recommendations to improve performance, the need for a level unit, fans, you name it. This issue has been analyzed ad nauseum.

As to climate class ratings, there is a lot of confusion. If you want to sell a fridge -- ANY fridge in the EU, you have to label it with a climate class-- the max environment in which the fridge is expected to operate efficiently. The EU mandate has very little to do with cooling capacity and a lot to do with energy efficiency.

But, the effect of a T class rating vs a ST, N or SN is that the T rated fridge will outperform the others when installed and operated according to the manufacturers specifications.

So, many here have concluded, and rightfully so, that a T rated fridge is the one to have if you want it to cool better in higher ambient temps. Unfortunately, the RM85xx series fridges are SN rated.

Lastly, I'm not surprised that the Norcold rep didn't know what a climate class rating was. Unless their fridges are sold in Europe, the class rating is not needed.
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:37 PM   #46
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Thanks again to Reace for the updates and tirelessly working this issue. I think the redesigned doors will help. For those new to the fridge topic we are all fully aware of the manufacturers recommendations to improve performance, the need for a level unit, fans, you name it. This issue has been analyzed ad nauseum.

As to climate class ratings, there is a lot of confusion. If you want to sell a fridge -- ANY fridge in the EU, you have to label it with a climate class-- the max environment in which the fridge is expected to operate efficiently. The EU mandate has very little to do with cooling capacity and a lot to do with energy efficiency.

But, the effect of a T class rating vs a ST, N or SN is that the T rated fridge will outperform the others when installed and operated according to the manufacturers specifications.

So, many here have concluded, and rightfully so, that a T rated fridge is the one to have if you want it to cool better in higher ambient temps. Unfortunately, the RM85xx series fridges are SN rated.

Lastly, I'm not surprised that the Norcold rep didn't know what a climate class rating was. Unless their fridges are sold in Europe, the class rating is not needed.
How true! It amazes me how many people in the business don't know about class ratings.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:01 PM   #47
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...
Lastly, I'm not surprised that the Norcold rep didn't know what a climate class rating was. Unless their fridges are sold in Europe, the class rating is not needed.
Norcold is sold in Europe, and their European models are climate rated. See: https://www.dropbox.com/s/doc3607ag8...3-V05.pdf?dl=0
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:11 PM   #48
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The EU does care about both energy efficiency and cooling capacity with their system. They don't directly call it cooling capacity but they do specify various holding temperatures for types of refrigerator compartments (see page 41 in the pdf listed above). The manufacturer has to figure and built the cooling capacity to achieve holding temperatures. I could be wrong but that is the way I see their system.

If it is not a cooling unit problem and the cooling unit is capable of dropping to below freezing temperatures inside the refrigerator then the main point for RML8555 problems is what is causing the gas to lose flame or not re-ignite. These controls don't appear to modulate the heat source or even high fire, low fire, but they do go through an intricate check before allowing gas ignition.
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Old 09-26-2014, 10:04 PM   #49
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What I don't understand is that the 5 cubic foot fridge in my 19 would freeze lettuce if I turned it down to much and the new 6.7 cubic foot can't keep things cold enough. What did Dometic do different from one to the other. To only thing that I can figure out is they put in a smaller cooling unit and it isn't totally up to the task.
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Old 09-26-2014, 11:40 PM   #50
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OK, this is tough to swallow. Seems no one in Dometic, US or Canada, is aware of Climate Class of Refrigerators?? but in Ghana ... in 2006 ...
-----
Energy Consumption in Refrigeration in Ghana, 2006
A comparative study
Appliance labelling
•Model
•Manufacturer’s name or trade mark
•Estimated annual consumption
•Energy efficiency star rating
•Type of refrigerant (refrigerators & air-conditioners)
•Climate class (refrigerators)

Key Things to Remember
•The more BLACK STARS the more EFFICIENT the appliance (Five Star is most efficient)
•The less the ANNUAL ENERGY CONSUMPTION the more EFFICIENT the appliance
•CLIMATE CLASS should be TROPICAL or SUB-TROPICAL
•Label should bear the NAME of MANUFACTURER and TYPE OF REFRIGERATOR
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Old 09-27-2014, 07:03 AM   #51
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Look on page 40 of this pdf. It is from 2010 and the low end of the Tropical class might have changed from +16degC to +18degC

http://ec.europa.eu/danmark/document...28_6481_en.pdf
To make this clear for us all, here is the chart from the EU form mentioned by GRC, and referred to by others throughout this thread:
Ambient
Extended temperate SN 10 to 32C (89.6F)
Temperate N 16 to 32C (89.6F)
Subtropical ST 16 to 38C (100.4F)
Tropical T 16 to 43C (109.4F)

I'd like one Tropical one to go, please.

Bill Sonnenburg
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Old 09-27-2014, 09:15 AM   #52
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So just a word from the original poster.....this is all great information, which I hope will be of value when you call Dometic to express your concerns. For all those who are experiencing difficulty with these fridges, I hope you will call. And for all those contemplating one of these fridges in a future build, why not call Dometic to express your concern and ask them what they are doing to address these problems? We've been extremely fortunate to have Reace, as a manufacture, to lead the charge on this, but there is also power in numbers from consumers and potential consumers. Thank you for considering this approach.
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Old 09-27-2014, 09:38 AM   #53
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Norcold is sold in Europe, and their European models are climate rated. See: https://www.dropbox.com/s/doc3607ag8...3-V05.pdf?dl=0
Its a very good point. The thing is, the RM 85xx fridges are primarily for the EU market. Dometic just sells them here too. Norcold is probably set up differently, so their north american reps are not exposed to the EU models or the need for a climate class rating.
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Old 09-27-2014, 09:44 AM   #54
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So just a word from the original poster.....this is all great information, which I hope will be of value when you call Dometic to express your concerns. For all those who are experiencing difficulty with these fridges, I hope you will call. And for all those contemplating one of these fridges in a future build, why not call Dometic to express your concern and ask them what they are doing to address these problems? We've been extremely fortunate to have Reace, as a manufacture, to lead the charge on this, but there is also power in numbers from consumers and potential consumers. Thank you for considering this approach.
And thank you for returning us to your original idea, which is a good one. I've been on the horn with various people at Dometic about 6 times in the last several months. My general impression is that climate class ratings are irrelevant or unknown to their reps in North America. So, best approach may be to not even broach that subject. The fridge underperforms, so Dometic, can you help us fix it.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:23 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bill and Earline View Post
To make this clear for us all, here is the chart from the EU form mentioned by GRC, and referred to by others throughout this thread:
Ambient
Extended temperate SN 10 to 32C (89.6F)
Temperate N 16 to 32C (89.6F)
Subtropical ST 16 to 38C (100.4F)
Tropical T 16 to 43C (109.4F)

I'd like one Tropical one to go, please.

Bill Sonnenburg
Me too
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Old 09-27-2014, 11:29 PM   #56
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I just called Norcold and spoke to one of their tech's to see if I would expect any better results with their product. They have 2 units that would fit through the door - N3104 and N3150. This particular tech has also not heard of climate class ratings.

When I expressed the concerns I am having with their competition, I was put on hold so he could talk it over with his supervisor. He came back with...they recommend when the outside temperature is 80 degrees or up, the a/c needs to be turned on. The smaller the fridge, the better the cooling. That confirmed for me, that there is no benefit to switching to a different manufacturer when right off the bat, they won't make any promises...which I respect the honesty rather than trying to say what needs to be said to get the sale.

Reace
Just had a thought, if small fridges cool better could two 3 cubic foot units be installed one above the other?

Doug
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Old 09-28-2014, 11:29 AM   #57
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Just had a thought, if small fridges cool better could two 3 cubic foot units be installed one above the other?
I think this makes sense, both to get enough cooling unit for the volume, and to provide appropriate temperature control for each unit. A single-door refrigerator/freezer can have the freezer compartment removed to become an all-refrigerator; I would want the all-freezer unit to be smaller, and it would probably need to be designed for the purpose (more heat to move per unit of volume).

External venting would be an interesting challenge. That may be one reason that it seems that the approach of separate dedicated units is seen only in compressor-type portable units and high-end home appliances.
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:08 PM   #58
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The other problems with two 3 footers imho (and yes I've thought of it) are that the use of space is less efficient, there are two cooling units, installation would require framing in a support structure for two instead of one, power consumption and weight is higher than a single unit, and the overall enclosure space would be more than a single 4.7 cf and maybe more than the 6 cf. The advantage would be that you could put frequently used items in one and the lesser used items in the other, which would keep certain items colder and reduce the amount of time the fridges take to get back to temp.
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:39 PM   #59
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I'm seriously looking at the Nova Kool RFU6800 as a replacement for my Dometic 4.3 that has always had marginal cooling performance. The RFU6800 is a 12 volt, 6.8 cuft, 2 door unit (refer on top and freezer on the bottom) with a Danfoss compressor that will fit in the space I currently have my 4.3 and microwave. I have plenty of battery and solar charging capacity to run this unit off the grid, boondocking, even on grey days. Removal of the old unit and installation of the new one will be pretty simple. I also plan to well-insulate the vented area in the back. I like the larger refrigerator with the separate 2.5 cuft freezer door on the bottom for good efficiency. Right now I'm getting quotes; looking for best price and availability. Hopefully this will become reality before Christmas.
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:55 PM   #60
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I'm seriously looking at the Nova Kool RFU6800 as a replacement for my Dometic 4.3 that has always had marginal cooling performance. The RFU6800 is a 12 volt, 6.8 cuft, 2 door unit (refer on top and freezer on the bottom) with a Danfoss compressor that will fit in the space I currently have my 4.3 and microwave. I have plenty of battery and solar charging capacity to run this unit off the grid, boondocking, even on grey days. Removal of the old unit and installation of the new one will be pretty simple. I also plan to well-insulate the vented area in the back. I like the larger refrigerator with the separate 2.5 cuft freezer door on the bottom for good efficiency. Right now I'm getting quotes; looking for best price and availability. Hopefully this will become reality before Christmas.
Please start a new thread and keep us updated via it. I am very interested in doing something similar with my 6.7.
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