Phantom 20 amp refrigerator?

[TTMartin]

Situation: I'm running my generator and have my shore power cord plugged into the generator. I have a grounding plug in the generator.

Ran generator last night, didn't notice anything unusual. Might have had some extra load, but, wasn't enough to impact anything.

At lunch today ran the generator, decided to plug a 6 amp at 12 volts battery charger to help top off my Sprinter van house battery.

My wife went to use the microwave like she had the previous evening and the generator went to overload

I checked the Progressive EMS and it was showing 13 to 15 amps. Only had a half hour for lunch generator hours and didn't do any further trouble shooting.

Upon thinking about it I thought the refrigerator must have been using AC and made sure it was set to 'gas'.

So this evening we start the generator. Plug in the van battery charger into the exterior outlet on the trailer. Now the Progressive EMS is showing 23 to 25 amp draw from our WEN 2350?

So the head scratching and trouble shooting begins.

Start by trigging the exterior GFCI. Amps drops maybe one amp.

Next start turning off breakers. Starting from the bottom. No change until I get to the refrigerator that is below the 'Main' 30 amp breaker. Tripping the refrigerator breaker total amps drops to about 3 amps.

I go outside and unplug the refrigerator from the AC outlet. Turn back on refrigerator breaker. Amp display on the Progressive EMS jumps back up to 23 amps.

So I try some other things like unplug extension cord going to the van battery charger from the trailer.

Nothing seems to change that when I turn on the refrigerator breaker amp draw displayed on the Progressive EMS jumps (and generator reacts to the increased load). I turned off the EMS and unplugged the grounding plug turned on the fridge breaker generator still reacts to the load.

So a I'm guessing when I pressure washed the trailer last Friday water must have gotten into the refrigerator outlet and is creating a partial short circuit. Nothing is smoking or seems to be getting hot.

On my previous trailer the refrigerator plug was a GFCI it doesn't appear to be one on my 2020 Escape 19.

Right now we're at Glacier, don't have shore power, don't want to run the fridge on AC. And made the reservations for here months and months ago, so it's unlikely I'll do anything with the refrigerator outlet until we leave. I'll just leave the breaker off.

I can't think of it being anything else. How about you?

[Centex]

Do you have another breaker / circuit that feeds your converter (charger), or is there a chance it is on the same breaker as the refrigerator?

Not suggesting it should be that way, just asking if you've confirmed you have a separate breaker that cuts-off your converter (charger)? A test would be: 1) disconnect battery and any link to the van; 2) connect to shore/generator power; 3) turn on some of the 12VDC OH lights; 4) find the breaker that kills the lights (kills power to converter).

Asking because my gut (FWIW) tells me there's another 'valid' load on that refrigerator breaker, not some sort of 'fault' given the amps you are talking about (methinks any sort of 'fault' of that magnitude would trip the breaker or cause other obvious symptoms).

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

Situation: I'm running my generator and have my shore power cord plugged into the generator. I have a grounding plug in the generator.

Ran generator last night, didn't notice anything unusual. Might have had some extra load, but, wasn't enough to impact anything.

At lunch today ran the generator, decided to plug a 6 amp at 12 volts battery charger to help top off my Sprinter van house battery.

My wife went to use the microwave like she had the previous evening and the generator went to overload

I checked the Progressive EMS and it was showing 13 to 15 amps. Only had a half hour for lunch generator hours and didn't do any further trouble shooting.

Upon thinking about it I thought the refrigerator must have been using AC and made sure it was set to 'gas'.

So this evening we start the generator. Plug in the van battery charger into the exterior outlet on the trailer. Now the Progressive EMS is showing 23 to 25 amp draw from our WEN 2350?

So the head scratching and trouble shooting begins.

Start by trigging the exterior GFCI. Amps drops maybe one amp.

Next start turning off breakers. Starting from the bottom. No change until I get to the refrigerator that is below the 'Main' 30 amp breaker. Tripping the refrigerator breaker total amps drops to about 3 amps.

I go outside and unplug the refrigerator from the AC outlet. Turn back on refrigerator breaker. Amp display on the Progressive EMS jumps back up to 23 amps.

So I try some other things like unplug extension cord going to the van battery charger from the trailer.

Nothing seems to change that when I turn on the refrigerator breaker amp draw displayed on the Progressive EMS jumps (and generator reacts to the increased load). I turned off the EMS and unplugged the grounding plug turned on the fridge breaker generator still reacts to the load.

So a I'm guessing when I pressure washed the trailer last Friday water must have gotten into the refrigerator outlet and is creating a partial short circuit. Nothing is smoking or seems to be getting hot.

On my previous trailer the refrigerator plug was a GFCI it doesn't appear to be one on my 2020 Escape 19.

Right now we're at Glacier, don't have shore power, don't want to run the fridge on AC. And made the reservations for here months and months ago, so it's unlikely I'll do anything with the refrigerator outlet until we leave. I'll just leave the breaker off.

I can't think of it being anything else. How about you?

Perhaps it’s the wfco battery charger ?

[Iowa Dave]

If you access the battery charger under the table benches you can hear it run when it starts up. It is a load on the generator that might be your problem as noted. I just didn’t know I’d you knew you could hear the cooling fan running on the charger.
Iowa Dave

[John in Santa Cruz]

indeed, on a non-escape trailer with a WFCO panel that I recently worked on, the fridge and converter were on the same breaker, labeled fridge.

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by oldwave

Perhaps it’s the wfco battery charger ?

I thought the WFCO battery charger was supposed to be 50 or 60 amps @ 12 volts. That would put mean under 10 Amps at 120 volts wouldn't it?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Yeah, our wfco are max 55amp, which would be around 6 amps at 120V, and that's only if they are running at their max load, unlikely

[TTMartin]

Findings: So after the replies pointed to the WFCO converter and the whole reason I was running the generator is to charge my batteries.

As usual I'm in a nice shady spot at Glacier National Park surrounded by tall trees and getting almost no solar.

So this morning I opened up the distribution panel. The WFCO Converter was indeed paired with the refrigerator on a single breaker.

I moved the WFCO converter off the refrigerator breaker and down to another 15 amp breaker labeled 'Water Heater'. Which itself is a little confusing as I don't have a two way water heater, the trailer is pre-wired for a two way water heater. However, those wires are all capped off in the distribution box. Strangely, there was something on that breaker. I'll have to figure out what later.

So with breakfast generator hours I fired up the generator. Had the refrigerator breaker and the 'hot water' breaker off initially. Flipped the 'hot water' / WFCO Converter breaker on the generator went under load and the Amp display on the Progressive EMS read 24 Amps.

Just to confirm there was nothing wrong with the refrigerator circuit I switched 'Hot water' / WFCO Converter breaker off. And turned the refrigerator breaker on (still unplugged outside). Nothing unusual happened.

So it definitely is the WFCO Converter drawing that heavy load.

Does anyone have know if I can get some dual 15 amp breakers for the WFCO distribution panel? Type and source?

There are two outlet circuits combined on one 15 amp breaker. I'd like to split those. I'd also like to give the WFCO Converter it's own breaker.

With that heavy of a draw it definitely will make a difference with running the AC off the generator or not.

Thanks for all of the feedback.

After 45 minuit the Progressive EMS is now showing 18 amps. The Go Power Solar Charge Controller shows the battery is still getting just over 14 volt charge from the WFCO Converter.

[Vermilye]

An interesting problem! The refrigerator on AC should draw 2 - 3 amps. The converter at full load will draw more than the expected 6 amps because it has a poor power factor, but should be under 10 amps unless it has some internal fault. There is no appliance (other than the AC) in the trailer that draws more than 15 amps, and most far less. Escape has been known to connect the converter to the refrigerator breaker.

One possibility is the water heater is on electric - it draws 15 amps or so. While it shouldn't be connected to the refrigerator breaker, mistakes happen.

I doubt the power washing could cause a partial short. Anything that is consuming 15 - 20 amps that it is not designed to do is going to be making smoke!

On edit (I posted before your follow up) -

I'd check that you don't have a working electric element in the water heater. 24 amps is far too high for just a properly functioning WFCO converter. If you removed the "something" wire on the breaker you used for the WFCO converter so the only load was the converter, I'd suspect a problem with the converter. Is the converter fan running? At full load it should be.

I've purchased the dual breakers at Lowes.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

Does anyone have know if I can get some dual 15 amp breakers for the WFCO distribution panel? Type and source?

Here is a thread that mentions replacement breakers.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...ion-11047.html

Below is a pic of the WFCO 8955 with tandem breakers - I split the loads on my trailer using them. As far as a brand to use, I would buy the same type as you currently have in the breaker box - they are available at any of the Lowes/Home Depot stores. My trailer used Square D so that is what I used.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-Ho...reaker/1086809

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Here is a thread that mentions replacement breakers.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...ion-11047.html

Below is a pic of the WFCO 8955 with tandem breakers - I split the loads on my trailer using them. As far as a brand to use, I would buy the same type as you currently have in the breaker box - they are available at any of the Lowes/Home Depot stores. My trailer used Square D so that is what I used.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-Ho...reaker/1086809

Thank you.

So now after about 2 hours the Progressive EMS is now showing an expected 10 Amps.

I'm interested in hearing your take on what I experienced. Does it sound normal to you? Do you think there is something wrong with my WFCO Converter or Progressive EMS?

[RangerMan]

I don't think I've ever heard the term 'partial short'. Is there such a thing? Intermittent maybe?

[TTMartin]

Originally Posted by RangerMan

I don't think I've ever heard the term 'partial short'. Is there such a thing? Intermittent maybe?

I was thinking in terms of current flowing through a poor conductor.

[Centex]

Well, I'm glad you found the 'phantom', that it wasn't some sort of electrical fault per se, and you seem well on your way with help from tdf-texas toward getting your breaker panel arranged more suitably for your needs.

IMO that'll be nice, you'll gain the ability to assuredly manage your loads selectively at the breaker panel. E.g. assuredly prevent the reefer from going to AC-mode when connected to shore/generator power if desired, or even defer battery charging (converter off) if you want to run the air conditioner or whatever for a stint on a minimal-power generator.

I suspect the observed behavior is now 'normal' - if I understand the chronology you may have run for a while on the battery without the benefit of charging while on the generator (the 'reefer' breaker off); now with the 'charger' back online a period of heavier charging load evidenced by the EMS amps, and finally 'back to lower level' with the battery 'topped-up'.

Enjoy Glacier and Have Fun!

[John in Santa Cruz]

24 amps at 120 volts is nearly 3000 watts. thats a huge amount of power, whatever is sucking that amount of power should be getting really really hot. I would sniff around that power unit, hot electronics has a distinctive smell.

the electronics module in the bottom of the WFCO is known to go back, I replaced one last month for a hapless camper who was suffering in 106F heat, the Progressive Dynamics PD4655V was a drop in fit (I left his original fuse panel alone, and just replaced the converter module). if you have the 45A WFCO, use the PD4645V, or the 35A would be a 4635V, they are all interchangable, just have different output capacity.

[Chamberman]

It seems very odd that you're able to get 23 - 24A continuous from a WEN 2350 which is only rated for 1900W continuous. I'd be questioning the accuracy of the current reading from the EMS. I know the Progressive EMS has an ACV cal pot but I haven't seen one for the current.

Although it appears the zero of the EMS current meter is probably close based on your observations that doesn't ensure the span is not massively off.

Unfortunately the WEN doesn't have a display on it to verify against the EMS. I'd be looking at putting an amp probe on the incoming power to see if the EMS built in meter is correct.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by TTMartin

I was thinking in terms of current flowing through a poor conductor.

In my wfco, I re-tightened the ground and neutral connectors to the respective bus bars, there were a few of the nuts loose, and the untightened ones were actually laying at bottom of the wfco, so check all those.