Propane explosion below cooktop

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Veewee67

Has anyone installed a Dickinson 2-burner cooktop in a 17B? Wondering how difficult it would be to replace the Suburban.

Be careful in the 17. I believe Escape wouldn’t install a Dickinson cooktop in that model because of the increased depth and possible interference with furnace below. Also if the Suburban stove is turned 90 degrees as the stock position that will put the Dickinson high output 11,000 BTU burner at the back pretty close to the wall if you have the control knobs out front which makes the most sense.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Be careful in the 17. I believe Escape wouldn’t install a Dickinson cooktop in that model because of the increased depth and possible interference with furnace below. Also if the Suburban stove is turned 90 degrees as the stock position that will put the Dickinson high output 11,000 BTU burner at the back pretty close to the wall if you have the control knobs out front which makes the most sense.

Good catch! I'd forgotten that they put the furnace under the cooktop in the 17B. Judging solely by one of the photos on their website (can barely see the furnace), it looks like there would be clearance issues with the Dickinson. It's one thing to modify a drawer, like I did with my 19, but quite another to deal with the furnace.

[Veewee67]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

Good catch! I'd forgotten that they put the furnace under the cooktop in the 17B. Judging solely by one of the photos on their website (can barely see the furnace), it looks like there would be clearance issues with the Dickinson. It's one thing to modify a drawer, like I did with my 19, but quite another to deal with the furnace.Attachment 55746

Thanks. I'll get a portable propane leak detector first and also wait to see what ETI does.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

It's one thing to modify a drawer, like I did with my 19, but quite another to deal with the furnace.Attachment 55746

Kill two birds with one stone? Also get rid of the Dometic furnace at the same time and find a spot to install a Propex HS2800! I’m sure new owners aren’t liking the sound of ripping out one new appliance let alone two.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Kill two birds with one stone? Also get rid of the Dometic furnace at the same time and find a spot to install a Propex HS2800! I’m sure new owners aren’t liking the sound of ripping out one new appliance let alone two.

True, but tackling the Propex sounds right up your alley, Mr. mini-split pioneer...

[Veewee67]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Kill two birds with one stone? Also get rid of the Dometic furnace at the same time and find a spot to install a Propex HS2800! I’m sure new owners aren’t liking the sound of ripping out one new appliance let alone two.

That might cure the rattle in the furnace.

[DanandDaphne]

I thought this was really interesting. Ducting exhaust and air intake down through the floor instead of directly out through the side.

Vehicle Installations
The furnace is usually mounted in a bed-box or cupboard, flued downwards through the floor and out to the side of the vehicle using the flexible stainless ducting. The heat is ducted to one or more outlets through tough highly flexible 2.36 inch (60mm) or 3 inch (76mm) ducting.

Here it it is for $877, say's it is marked down from $1.252

https://www.suremarineservice.com/He...rs/hs2800.html

I couldn't find a Dometic DF for sale so I don't know how this compares but their outputs are about the same. Dometic DFSAD12, BTU output 9,120. Propex HS2800, BTU output 9,500

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

True, but tackling the Propex sounds right up your alley, Mr. mini-split pioneer...

I will definitely consider it if the Atwood 8012-II ever dies and repair is prohibitive. Might be awhile though because it is a trusty little heater with parts readily available. Pretty quiet too. Fun fact: The furnace was carried by the American Medical Research Expedition to Mt. Everest and used in the record setting Pacific Crossing of the Double Eagle Balloon.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I will definitely consider it if the Atwood 8012-II ever dies and repair is prohibitive. Might be awhile though because it is a trusty little heater with parts readily available. Pretty quiet too. Fun fact: The furnace was carried by the American Medical Research Expedition to Mt. Everest and used in the record setting Pacific Crossing of the Double Eagle Balloon.

Sorry for off-topic post...

Do you have more information about the Mt. Everest expedition and furnace use? I have been up there and am always interested. Hope there is one more trip left in me, particularly as our plans for later this year to EBC and mighty Cho la pass are not going to materialize due to Covid.

I wonder what they'd use the furnace for. It's not like one is going to sleep in a warm room... Most things (including the heavy propane cylinders) are carried on the back of men, sometimes mules and yaks. They might have used the helicopters but I wonder why. Also, people seem to complain about propane at an altitude - and there is a bit of that. May be they used blended fuel.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by kavm

Also, people seem to complain about propane at an altitude - and there is a bit of that. May be they used blended fuel.

Altitude isn't a problem - changing altitude is. A suitable jet and an adjustable regulator would probably be sufficient.

Low temperature is a problem (causing low fuel pressure), but there's no fix for that - it presumably wouldn't be practical to carry compressed natural gas (methane and ethane), and mixing in anything else (butane) would make low temperature fuel pressure worse.

[kavm]

Thank you very much, Brian! I was reading the following blog which seemed to suggest a mixture of propane, isobutane and butane...

https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot...elevation.html

That said, I can see that the freezing point of propane is the lowest among the three, and temperatures below 11F are obviously common...

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by kavm

I was reading the following blog which seemed to suggest a mixture of propane, isobutane and butane...

https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot...elevation.html

They were starting with butane (because for backpacking it has better energy density for the volume of the canister), and improved cold weather performance by mixing in some propane. We are starting with propane already, so mixing in butane would just make cold weather performance worse.

Anyone hauling cooking fuel on their back would prefer butane if it warm enough to work, because it has more energy per volume and because the lower vapour pressure means that the canister can be thinner and lighter. Those things don't matter on RVs, so cheaper and readily available mostly-propane LPG (liquified petroleum gas) is used.

Originally Posted by kavm

That said, I can see that the freezing point of propane is the lowest among the three, and temperatures below 11F are obviously common...

That's the boiling (vapourization) point, rather than the freezing point, but yes... in what people who actually experience winter consider cold weather, normal butane is useless (although isobutane is not as bad).

[kavm]

Thank you! Your knowledge on the technical topics is just amazing!

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

in what people who actually experience winter consider cold weather, normal butane is useless (although isobutane is not as bad).

Not if you store the canisters in you pants.

[RangerMan]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Okay, now I know what a manometer is for and now I've read a sniffer is a cool tool. But my question, if you use a manometer would a leak such as James (Ritacasita) found been discovered if a person only used a manometer?


Laudy, I've been pulling an all-molded towable for 19 years and have never used these tools. Now y'all have questioning that....

Our maint shop guy uses a manometer and tells me it is meant to measure pressure upstream from where it is attached. So it really not intended as a leak checking device.

I'm thinking if you check at the regulator and see an 11 reading and then check at the fridge test point and see a 10 this would tell you something is probably not as it should be.

After all this propane talk I'm having dark thoughts every time I look at my stovetop. Sorta like chain saws. Scary looking!

[MVA]

Originally Posted by RangerMan

Our maint shop guy uses a manometer and tells me it is meant to measure pressure upstream from where it is attached. So it really not intended as a leak checking device.

I'm thinking if you check at the regulator and see an 11 reading and then check at the fridge test point and see a 10 this would tell you something is probably not as it should be.

After all this propane talk I'm having dark thoughts every time I look at my stovetop. Sorta like chain saws. Scary looking!

There has been a lots of comments on leaks, memometers, regulators, etc., on this topic, so I thought a couple of comments would be helpful.

There are two types of regulators; upstream and downstream control. The regulators used on travel trailers, gas grills etc., are downstream control type. They are a relatively a simple device. An adjustable spring/valve assembly allows gas to feed downstream. As the pressure downstream is reduced, the lower pressure on the downstream side of the valve allows gas to feed downstream.

If the manometer is attached at the test port on the downstream control regulator, then it will measure pressure at this point. Not sure what your shop guy was saying, but it measures a leak if the upstream gas supply is turned off (i.e., the tanks). When the tank valves are closed and assuming there was a leak, there will be a relatively small volume of high pressure gas "above" the regulator between the regulator and the tanks (in the hoses) that would have to be used up before the manometer would indicate a reduction in pressure. Hence in this case with a leak, the manometer would indicate a constant pressure for a period in time until the upstream pressure is reduced to the regulated pressure. Then the manometer would indicate the loss in pressure as the leak progressed. In addition, if there is a 1 w.c. (water column) loss in pressure (11 vs. 10) from the regulator to the refrigerator, that would indicate a significant gas flow rate (massive leak) to have such a large pressure drop over such a short distance. System tubing sizes are engineered to have a near constant pressure so that this does not happen. I am a bit confused/concerned by his comment.

Manometers, pressure gauges, etc. are the standard methods to look for system wide leaks in industry. Manometers are just pressure measuring devices as are pressure gauges; in fact they are the standard used to calibrate pressure gauges. A hand held gas detector is useful to find the location of a leak. Since propane is a near ideal gas, one needs to be cognitive that temperature changes can mask or incorrectly indicate potential gas leaks. Hence a decrease in temperature would result in a decrease in system pressure, incorrectly indicating a gas leak.

2 cents.

[RangerMan]

Originally Posted by MVA

There has been a lots of comments on leaks, memometers, regulators, etc., on this topic, so I thought a couple of comments would be helpful.

There are two types of regulators; upstream and downstream control. The regulators used on travel trailers, gas grills etc., are downstream control type. They are a relatively a simple device. An adjustable spring/valve assembly allows gas to feed downstream. As the pressure downstream is reduced, the lower pressure on the downstream side of the valve allows gas to feed downstream.

If the manometer is attached at the test port on the downstream control regulator, then it will measure pressure at this point. Not sure what your shop guy was saying, but it measures a leak if the upstream gas supply is turned off (i.e., the tanks). When the tank valves are closed and assuming there was a leak, there will be a relatively small volume of high pressure gas "above" the regulator between the regulator and the tanks (in the hoses) that would have to be used up before the manometer would indicate a reduction in pressure. Hence in this case with a leak, the manometer would indicate a constant pressure for a period in time until the upstream pressure is reduced to the regulated pressure. Then the manometer would indicate the loss in pressure as the leak progressed. In addition, if there is a 1 w.c. (water column) loss in pressure (11 vs. 10) from the regulator to the refrigerator, that would indicate a significant gas flow rate (massive leak) to have such a large pressure drop over such a short distance. System tubing sizes are engineered to have a near constant pressure so that this does not happen. I am a bit confused/concerned by his comment.

Manometers, pressure gauges, etc. are the standard methods to look for system wide leaks in industry. Manometers are just pressure measuring devices as are pressure gauges; in fact they are the standard used to calibrate pressure gauges. A hand held gas detector is useful to find the location of a leak. Since propane is a near ideal gas, one needs to be cognitive that temperature changes can mask or incorrectly indicate potential gas leaks. Hence a decrease in temperature would result in a decrease in system pressure, incorrectly indicating a gas leak.

2 cents.

I'm going to stick with our guy. He barely finished the 8th grade and doesn't always impart to the listener what he means but he's an absolute wizard with all things mechanical.

Been here 26 years and has always kept our farm equipment in good condition. Not an easy job when it starts to age as most of ours has.

The Cat dealer in Corpus sniffed around here some years back trying to lure him away. Things got 'western' in a hurry when I found out!

[CADreamin]

Wonder what the difference is between the link Ops sent and this one from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 , besides price.

[Farmgirl]

Originally Posted by RangerMan

I rarely use it but after all the back and forth here on the stove top I decided to vent the cabinet. No actual vent just opened the cabinet door. I put a portable propane detector in the cabinet.

Wont fix anything but will let me know if I have a problem before I blow up.

Me, too. I bought a sniffer because I have a gas stove in the house, but its first use was in the trailer. No leaks anywhere when the stove is not in use. I haven't tried it with the stove on yet.


And I ordered a a battery powered alarm to leave in the cabinet under the stove.

[RangerMan]

Originally Posted by Farmgirl

Me, too. I bought a sniffer because I have a gas stove in the house, but its first use was in the trailer. No leaks anywhere when the stove is not in use. I haven't tried it with the stove on yet.


And I ordered a a battery powered alarm to leave in the cabinet under the stove.

Good move! I like your name "FarmGirl" I had one for 58 years. Still miss her every day.