refrigerator

[RickM]

Not to add to fuel to the fire (no pun intended), I was reviewing the Escape Owners Manual this evening and on page12 in bold print was this warning "CAUTION Never tow you (sic) RV while appliances such as your furnace or refrigerator are operating in the gas mode."

Since my 19' Escape has the two-way refrigerator (gas or 110), I will use gas to keep things cold. My old Casita had the 3-way frig and work well on 12 volts and 10 gauge wire.

[gbaglo]

Just for the paranoia of it . . . I wouldn't post here or anywhere on the net that I run with my propane turned on ( since I don't ). And, because when lawyers, insurance companies or journalists get involved, the first thing they do is search the net for information on those involved for the lawsuit.

Besides, the fridge stays cold.

baglo

[thoer]

This thread that is almost exactly like several I read when I was involved at the Scamp Yahoo group. I bet it goes on everywhere RV's are discussed. And it never gets fully resolved! As one person said, he would bet that just about every single large whale size RV you see on the road has their refrig running on LP while moving, since few of the large refrig's run on 12v. On the flip side, new refrig's will keep things cold for a very long time. We travel with "blue ice" always in the freezer (when it is not full). I keep a thermometer inside, and the refrig stays cold for many hours if I do not open it often.

[escape artist]

Hi: EricT et al...Our first trip of the season and we still don't run the fridge while on the road. We did try an o'er night in a parking lot, with permission of course, and ran the fridge/ furnace on propane. We were very comfy and all was well till sometime in the night a 40 ft'er MoHo showed up next door with his gen. running!!! : If we were doing any "Mall walking" we just turned the fridge over to propane and shut it off b/4 leaving again. Works for us!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[Jim Bennett]

Other then on ferries and in the odd tunnel, I have never seen or heard of any official rule/regulation that the propane must be off.

If I have been plugged in to 110V, and am only traveling a few hours, I just leave it off. If I am traveling half a day or more and the weather is hot, I usually leave the propane on to the fridge. Like the rest of you likely have, I have heard all the arguments both ways and am of the mind that it is no more dangerous, and even less than, the fuel in our tow vehicle tanks.

[Hokie Escape]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

Other then on ferries and in the odd tunnel, I have never seen or heard of any official rule/regulation that the propane must be off.

If I have been plugged in to 110V, and am only traveling a few hours, I just leave it off. If I am traveling half a day or more and the weather is hot, I usually leave the propane on to the fridge. Like the rest of you likely have, I have heard all the arguments both ways and am of the mind that it is no more dangerous, and even less than, the fuel in our tow vehicle tanks.

I ditto what Jim says, and if we both say it, it must be true : - ) After all, we're both HERO's

[gbaglo]

Go here:

http://www.travel-british-columbia.c...ving_tips.aspx

Propane

The Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations require that the propane appliance tank valves be closed when your RV is moving. RVs on any BC Ferry must have the propane shut off at the cylinder.

As of June 24th, 2008, the BC Safety Authority has issued the following notice about propane safety: Propane Notice

baglo

[Jim Bennett]

Glenn, what is an appliance tank, is it one of those small bottles? Because that article on RV Hints makes reference to them separate from the cylinders. Very curious, it is.

I asked at Woody's RV, a huge RV dealer here in Calgary, a couple years back about leaving the propane to the fridge on, and they said there is no law requiring propane on an RV to be shut off unless specifically requested. Has something changed, or were they giving out false information? I would venture to guess that the vast majority leave it on. Besides, has anyone every heard of someone getting charged for it? I have been through vehicle check stops and border crossings and it was never questioned.

I am not saying it wouldn't be better to turn it off, of course it would, but we would all be safer if we never got behind the wheel of the vehicle in the first place.

I would really love to hear from someone in the Department of Transportation to actually spell out what the law in Canada (or the US) is.

[gbaglo]

Beats me. I can't open the PDF.

Anyway, I just sent an email to Transport Canada asking them to point me toward regulation that I could understand or to send me the Propane for Dummies edition. We will see if I get an answer.

baglo

[Jim Bennett]

Good stuff Glenn, I am eager to see what they have to say.

[bvansnell]

Here is a link I found:

http://www.propanegas.ca/PGAC/Safety_RVs.asp

It contains the statement:

In most provinces, it’s law that all appliances and pilot lights must be turned off and cylinder valves closed while travelling.

As Glenn said, the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulation (Transport Canada) 5.1(3) says:

(3) A person must not handle, offer for transport or transport dangerous goods in a means of containment that is required or permitted by this Part unless the means of containment is designed, constructed, filled, closed, secured and maintained so that under normal conditions of transport, including handling, there will be no accidental release of the dangerous goods that could endanger public safety.
SOR/2008-34

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/tdg/clear-part5-300.htm#sec51

I understand this to mean that propane should be turned off when travelling. Good enough for me.

[Jim Bennett]

I got this reply back from Alberta Transportation.
_________________________________________

Thank you for your provincial government web inquiry of May 18, 2010 regarding leaving a propane refrigerator on while vehicle is being driven.

Alberta Transportation does not have legislation prohibiting leaving a propane refrigerator on while a recreational vehicle is being driven. Municipal Affairs has information on propane safety and RV/Camping propane safety. You can view these brochures at this web link:
http://www.municipalaffairs.alberta....afety_tips.cfm

For further information regarding this matter, please contact me.

Sincerely,


Howard Greenway
Vehicle Standards Specialist
Vehicle Safety Section
Ph: 780 427-7573
Fax: 780 422-2721
Howard.Greenway@gov.ab.ca


________________________________________
From: Jim Bennett
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 11:04 PM
To: TRANS Contact Us
Subject: Ask Alberta Transportation a Question
Hi,


I was wondering what the regulation (law) is regarding propane on recreational vehicles, and if it was permissible or not to operate the refrigerator on propane while in transit.

Thanks,
Jim Bennett

[ronstew]

Originally Posted by bvansnell

Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulation (Transport Canada) 5.1(3) says:

(3) A person must not handle, offer for transport or transport dangerous goods in a means of containment that is required or permitted by this Part unless the means of containment is designed, constructed, filled, closed, secured and maintained so that under normal conditions of transport, including handling, there will be no accidental release of the dangerous goods that could endanger public safety.
SOR/2008-34

Under normal conditions of transport, it is safe to run with the valve open. It is abnormal conditions that can get ya. So I am not sure that this regulation applies. Further, I am not sure that TDG regulations apply to consumer goods in consumer quantities in or on private vehicles.

My TDG permit has expired, and I hope never to need another one. One screw-up cost me $200. Happily, that was just a placarding error.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by ronstew

Further, I am not sure that TDG regulations apply to consumer goods in consumer quantities in or on private vehicles.

I was wondering about this too, because from what I understand, you can't transport what would be defined as dangerous goods unless have a permit. I really don't think propane on an RV is considered dangerous goods in normal use. Transporting of bulk fuels is considered dangerous goods, but when in a vehicles tank they are not.

Well, something like that.

[bvansnell]

If TDG regulations don't apply to recreational vehicles, then I'm puzzled why the regulation is referred to here:

http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/rvs/operating-rvs-propane

Is there a law in BC about leaving the propane appliances in my RV running while I am driving? I already know that I have to turn the propane off when I get on BC Ferries but I want to be sure that I can use it otherwise.

This reader has asked an important safety question to kick off another season of RV use and the answer to this question is a quick one: yes, there is a law that would prevent this. The Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations require that the appliance tank valves be closed when your RV is moving. Also, a quick consultation with a Gas Safety Officer at the BC Safety Authority confirmed what I have always believed, this is not a good idea. In fact, it could be very dangerous in some circumstances.

It's also puzzling why the Propane Gas Association says what it does:

http://www.propanegas.ca/PGAC/Safety_RVs.asp

In most provinces, it’s law that all appliances and pilot lights must be turned off and cylinder valves closed while travelling.

[Jim Bennett]

It seems weird this term "Appliance Tank Valve", as it does not seem to be the valve on the propane tanks themselves. In a couple references, including Glenn's, it refers to the tank valve separately. Most of these references are also in columns, not official documentation.

I fired an email of to BC Transportation and am curious to see what they say. Glenn had contacted Transport Canada, hopefully they get back to him. I also just sent an email to Saskatchewan Department of Transport too.

So far all we have seen 'officially' is the response here in Alberta.

It would so be nice to get a clear official word from the various governments across Canada.

[Jim Bennett]

Well, I just sent out a like email to all the provincial transportation offices. We'll see what we hear back.

[gbaglo]

I haven't heard from Transport Canada.

These guys are going to wonder what hit them.

Interesting to see if we can get a straight answer.

baglo

[bvansnell]

An interesting link from the US:

http://rvbasics.com/techtips/rv-refr...traveling.html

There is an ongoing debate about whether or not to travel with the refrigerator operating on propane.

After hearing both sides of the debate, I can tell you that there is no real consensus and both sides are adamant in their beliefs. As far as I can tell there is no right or wrong answer, it's up to you to decide. Here are the arguments

Many RVers can see no danger in running the refrigerator on propane while on the road. They say they have traveled for years with no problems whatsoever. They point to the safety of propane powered vehicles and argue that we travel with tanks full of gasoline which is much more dangerous. Generally it is legal to travel while using propane, but keep in mind that it is illegal to have any open flames while near a service station fuel pump. And some tunnels and bridges may have restrictions too.

Other RVer's, claim that traveling with the propane on is a disaster waiting to happen. They argue that in an accident a broken propane line could increase the possibility of fire, even an explosion. For them the only safe way to travel is with the propane tank valves closed!.

[gbaglo]

Many RVers can see no danger in running the refrigerator on propane while on the road. They say they have traveled for years with no problems whatsoever.


The problem with that argument is that I have driven a vehicle for 46 years and have not been killed in a head-on collision...or had a tree fall on my head or been suffocated by a crib...

baglo