Tongue weights

[gbaglo]

There is a scale near ETI, Tim Horton's, Best Western, at the truck stop. I've not used it myself, but ETI would be familiar with it.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Eric & El

... if gross trailer weight is over 2000lb it is necessary to use a sway control device.

Although in general I would not suggest that anyone disregard manufacturer's instructions, this is a standard item in Toyota manuals and I ignored it for our Sienna. I checked with Toyota customer service for clarification, and they said it was an obsolete statement and could be disregarded... in 2005.

Also, I note that this says "sway control device", which is not the same as "weight distribution system". A simple friction-type sway control "bar" would meet the specification, if you want to use one.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Eric & El

Was thinking of the Fastway E2 since it allows backing up without disconnecting bars but that is a whole other decision between the 450/4500lb model or the 600/6000lb unit. I suppose the bars on the smaller unit would flex more reducing stress applied to the trailer frame but we would at the upper end of it's limit.

If you do choose to use a WD system, I'll note that the "limit" is on the load distribution effect, not the trailer weight. The heads and shanks are the same for every rating version of most of these common WD systems, so you can tow a 12,000 pound trailer with the "600 pound" model, but the spring bars are only stiff enough to transfer load to sort-of-compensate for 600 pounds of tongue weight. Since you may not need any weight distribution at all, it makes no sense to me to pick bars which are any stiffer; I just wouldn't bend the bars more than the intended amount.

In the specific case of the e2 trunnion hitch, all models from 600/6000 to 1200/12000 are identical (use exactly the same hitch head) except for the spring bars and the sockets the they plug into; however, the 450/4500 model is actually different. I would ask Fastway if the limit for the lighter model is really 4500 pounds, or that's just heaviest trailer for which it will do the standard amount of load transfer. Even if 4500 pounds is a real limit... do you expect to exceed that with the Escape 19'.

Originally Posted by Eric & El

My wife and I have talked of paying off the trailer then upgrading to something like a newer Forerunner.

A 4Runner may not be any more capable than a Highlander. It is structurally different, but not longer or more powerful. It does have a different transmission.

Originally Posted by Eric & El

In the meantime common sense, drive easy in the right lane, use the gears, and maybe even avoid the Coquihalla if necessary.

The Coquihalla is not so tough to drive, just slow up the long grades if you want to take it easy on the drivetrain... and it has lots of lanes to stay out of the way of faster traffic. I'm not fond of that highway for towing, but using a Highlander with an Escape 19' wouldn't keep me off it.

[float5]

I believe a 4Runner has a truck chassis which the Highlander does not. In addition, I believe the 4Runner GCWR is more than a thousand lbs. over that for the Highlander. That is a key figure and the manufacturer surely knows the difference between the two vehicles and has it reflected in that GCWR. The GCWR is often ignored by buyers but should always be considered.

Not sure if the Highlander is said to not take a WDH by Toyota because of the construction but I know some owners use one.

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by float5

Not sure if the Highlander is said to not take a WDH by Toyota because of the construction but I know some owners use one.

That's not what the instruction manual says.
It says they do not recommend a WDH and when I pressed Toyota for an explanation, they said, "Toyota does not have a relationship with a WDH manufacturer, so Toyota does not recommend one". Rather like McDonalds not having a relationship with Coca Cola, so they don't recommend Coca Cola. Except, in this example, they do have a relationship.
It does not mean that you can't or shouldn't use a WDH on a Highlander.

[float5]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

That's not what the instruction manual says.
It says they do not recommend a WDH and when I pressed Toyota for an explanation, they said, "Toyota does not have a relationship with a WDH manufacturer, so Toyota does not recommend one". Rather like McDonalds not having a relationship with Coca Cola, so they don't recommend Coca Cola. Except, in this example, they do have a relationship.
It does not mean that you can't or shouldn't use a WDH on a Highlander.

But do they not have a unibody construction? That has been a reason given for not using a WDH on a number of vehicles.

Someone here had used a WDH, I believe?, on another unibody vehicle and damaged the vehicle.

I also do not know how your conversation went. If the person asked did not realize that Toyota says it does not recommend use of a WDH and simply misunderstood, the person could be saying that there is no specific WDH that they recommend. Because Toyota does not work with a company that makes them. Kind of sounds as if the person could not tell you what WDH to use and thought that's what you wanted. But no telling. Perhaps it is just as you thought.

[gbaglo]

Almost all vehicles made today are unibody.
My RAV4 is unibody and I've used a WDH for eight years with no issues. About 9 months ago, when in for service, I asked the Toyota dealer to pay special attention to the hitch receiver and report. They reported that there were no issues and that everything was good. And, the hitch receiver was installed at the dealership prior to me taking delivery.
If you know anything about Toyota, you know that they would not do anything that would compromise the vehicle. Any device installed or used improperly has the potential to damage a vehicle.

[float5]

Well, if you got them to install the hitch receiver, which they might not do at other Toyota dealers for such towing, then they obvioulsy thought it was fine because they would be at least partly responsible. I am pretty sure the unibody reason has been given, however, and someone else had damage. Perhaps they were not as careful as you.

Of course, the company may worry about unibody damage but that does not mean that it would normally occur. Yes, has to be installed properly also, as you note. A lot of people tend to do these things themselves and that does not necessarily go right.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

But do they not have a unibody construction? That has been a reason given for not using a WDH on a number of vehicles.

That reason has been given by forum members, not vehicle manufacturers and not mechanical engineers. It is common for unibody vehicles to allow WD use; my Sienna even requires WD for tongue weight for a threshold value, and it is certainly not the only vehicle which specifies this.

Of course, if you tack a hitch receiver onto random bits of body panel - which is how some poorly designed hitches work - you can cause damage. I assume that no one is doing that here, and hitches for vehicles such as the Highlander are designed to work with the hitch mounting points which are designed into the structure for that purpose.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

I believe a 4Runner has a truck chassis which the Highlander does not. In addition, I believe the 4Runner GCWR is more than a thousand lbs. over that for the Highlander. That is a key figure and the manufacturer surely knows the difference between the two vehicles and has it reflected in that GCWR.

The curb weight of the 4Runner is also higher (4400 to 4675 lb versus 4175 lb in the specs that I found in a quick online search), due in part to the separate body and frame construction. Toyota certainly does understand their own vehicles, and rates both for 5,000 pounds of trailer weight.

I agree that GCWR is critical, but so is curb weight. Since the intention here is to tow a trailer which will be several hundred pounds under the 5000 pound maximum, there will be at least several hundred pounds (plus driver allowance) of load capacity.

For the 2010 4Runner, from the owner's manual:

Total load capacity
Vehicles without third seats: 825 lb. (370 kg)
Vehicles with third seats: 1155 lb. (520 kg)
Total load capacity means the combined weight of occupants,
cargo and luggage.

For the 2010 Highlander, from the owner's manual:

Total load capacity: 1200 lb. (544 kg)
Total load capacity means the combined weight of occupants, cargo
and luggage.

Yes, the Highlander is at least as capable a cargo hauler as a 4Runner.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

Someone here had used a WDH, I believe?, on another unibody vehicle and damaged the vehicle.

Yes, someone used WD with a hitch which was apparently not designed for WD use, and the hitch was damaged - not any other part of the vehicle.

[float5]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That reason has been given by forum members, not vehicle manufacturers and not mechanical engineers. It is common for unibody vehicles to allow WD use; my Sienna even requires WD for tongue weight for a threshold value, and it is certainly not the only vehicle which specifies this.

I have seen that reason given a number of places, however, isn't a unibody often less strong and that is a valid reason? Of course, the manufacturer usually does not give the reason for any such statements as not recommending a WDH. And also, I expect that all unibodies are not equal.

[float5]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The curb weight of the 4Runner is also higher (4400 to 4675 lb versus 4175 lb in the specs that I found in a quick online search), due in part to the separate body and frame construction. Toyota certainly does understand their own vehicles, and rates both for 5,000 pounds of trailer weight.

I agree that GCWR is critical, but so is curb weight. Since the intention here is to tow a trailer which will be several hundred pounds under the 5000 pound maximum, there will be at least several hundred pounds (plus driver allowance) of load capacity.

For the 2010 4Runner, from the owner's manual:


For the 2010 Highlander, from the owner's manual:


Yes, the Highlander is at least as capable a cargo hauler as a 4Runner.

A new generation came in about then so I am not sure the information you have is correct but then I suppose what you have may be for older vehicles. Our 2011 has a 6300 lb. GVWR --- allowing far above the capacity you are giving --- so maybe there was a big change then. I use my own vehicle of course when looking at this and all of the subsequent years are similar to mine.

The 4Runner also has more than 1300 lbs. extra over a Highlander for GCWR.

Then again, you are looking at someone's 2010 but Eric in Wisconsin has a new Highlander. So perhaps they are simply not comparable. It certainly does depend upon what year one is looking at and the newer model 4Runners since 2010 are very different in several ways.

[float5]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Yes, someone used WD with a hitch which was apparently not designed for WD use, and the hitch was damaged - not any other part of the vehicle.

I am referring to someone who damaged his vehicle.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

I have seen that reason given a number of places, however, isn't a unibody often less strong and that is a valid reason?

No, for the same weight a unibody is stronger; that's why unibody construction is normal for most types of vehicles, including commercial vans. That is why the Highlander can have more interior space than the 4Runner and carry more load, in a lighter vehicle.

The potential issue is that the thick localized chunks of steel of a separate frame are better for handling concentrated loads, while unibodies are better for handling distributed loads. That's why an incompetently designed hitch can more readily cause problems with a unibody, and why a properly designed hitch is not a problem at all.

Originally Posted by float5

Of course, the manufacturer usually does not give the reason for any such statements as not recommending a WDH.

Some manufacturers do state a specific reason for not using WD, which is the risk of instability due to incorrect use of the WDH. Most are not afraid of making statements about the lack of suitability of passenger and multipurpose vehicles for heavy-duty cargo and towing, or the inferior dynamic characteristics (handling) of SUVs compared to passenger cars; they are not pretending that their vehicles are invincible, and there's nothing wrong with saying that the structure can't handle some particular prohibited use... when that's the case.

Originally Posted by float5

And also, I expect that all unibodies are not equal.

True. A Smart ForTwo isn't suitable for a Class 3 hitch, just as the frame of a Corvette (which does have a frame separate from the body panels) is not intended for heavy-duty towing.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

I am referring to someone who damaged his vehicle.

Okay - who? Not Steve's Honda Pilot.

[float5]

The reason some companies give for no WDH is that they need to be adjusted properly and often are not.

As far as unibodies, it is the frames that are not considered as strong --- is that not correct?

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by float5

I am referring to someone who damaged his vehicle.

You have been a member of the forum since 2010. We have had this discussion numerous times on this forum.
Repeating misleading information is not helpful.

[float5]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Okay - who? Not Steve's Honda Pilot.

Did he say he damaged his vehicle?

[float5]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

You have been a member of the forum since 2010. We have had this discussion numerous times on this forum.
Repeating misleading information is not helpful.

Oh, I guess you or no one else has gotten anything wrong? More than a few times. I have seen countless countless wrong statements on this forum and sometimes people correct them. I try to correct my wrong statements. I don't see some who make many wrong statements do so.