120V Electric Question

[Centex]

.... I have attached a photo of my sub panel, It contains a single 15A duplex breaker. There are three circuits. being run to the duplex breaker so one is pigtailed. The circuits consist of receptacles and the microwave. Hopefully the MW is on its own, but I've not yet determined if this is so. Will do so later this week. ...

So, upon disconnecting the mystery wire, and assuming the MW is on a dedicated breaker (easy to move one wire if it's not), it looks like your 120VAC system is up to snuff (NEC) throughout.

Kudos for making the effort to sort-out your circuits, labels, etc. IMO you have a better trailer as a result, and nothing beats the knowledge gained about your system if the need for troubleshooting or adding electrical equipment arises.

 

[hugh]

...
Gone are the 50A auto resetting circuit breaker and the 30A surface mounted manual reset breaker
...

Did you consider why ETI used an auto resetting breaker instead of a cheaper fuse block?

 

[peleuba]

Did you consider why ETI used an auto resetting breaker instead of a cheaper fuse block?

An auto-reset breaker was likely used to alleviate user-intervention if it ever trips. It was installed in a spot under a bench seat and behind a support that was difficult to reach if one had to replace a fuse. On my 50 auto-reset breaker there were two circuits running through it. One was for the Victron DC-DC charger and the other was from the battery to the converter by way of the battery cut-off switch. I placed each circuit on separate mega-fuses mounted in a centralized mega-fuse block close to the battery.

 

[hugh]

An auto-reset breaker was likely used to alleviate user-intervention if it ever trips. It was installed in a spot under a bench seat and behind a support that was difficult to reach if one had to replace a fuse. On my 50 auto-reset breaker there were two circuits running through it. One was for the Victron DC-DC charger and the other was from the battery to the converter by way of the battery cut-off switch. I placed each circuit on separate mega-fuses mounted in a centralized mega-fuse block close to the battery.

My understanding is that it's done to minimize the chance of you driving around with a breakaway switch that doesn't work. The power going to the breakaway should not rely on someone remembering or realizing the need to replace a fuse.

 

[peleuba]

My understanding is that it's done to minimize the chance of you driving around with a breakaway switch that doesn't work. The power going to the breakaway should not rely on someone remembering or realizing the need to replace a fuse.

You sort of answered your own question...

Yes, Like I said above - to minimize the chance of needing user intervention to reset a breaker; no matter what the circuit may be.

But it was more muddled then that on my camper. If you have a DC-DC Charger, Escape wires the the break away switch to the output side of the DC-DC charger. The battery is also connected via the 50A auto reset breaker to the same output terminal on the DC-DC Charger. In essence they are using the output terminal of the DC-DC charger sort of as a busbar. Further, its not clear to me that the auto-reset breaker would trip if a fault occurred on the break-away switch wire. It may, but since its not on the same wire, who knows... I do know that its not best practice to wire it in this manner.

In any event, I separated the break-away switch from the DC-DC Charger and placed it on its own circuit, direct to the battery. There are pros/cons to fusing this wire as well as several pages in the forums as to the correct way to do it. I fused it. At some point, I may switch to a known good single purpose auto-reset circuit breaker.

Its a worthy exercise to do a deep dive into the 12V side of these campers, especially if you have solar, inverter, DC-DC charger. Afterall, really, our campers are primarily 12V with only a couple of large appliances on 120V.

I doubt that any two campers are wired precisely the same manner.

Best Regards.

 

[wackyburggeezer]

Hey Paul!
Regarding your last sentence: Given the number of Escape trailers that have been built, it is conceivable that somewhere there are two trailers wired exactly the same. Who knows!

 

[hugh]

Right, you've done the wiring mods, so it's clear to you that if you happen to overload your 12v circuit and blow the fuse, that you shouldn't drive your trailer until you put in.a new fuse.


The risk is obviously someone who doesnt realize a blown fuse would disable the breakaway. Avoiding the fuse altogether (by using an auto-reser breaker) prevents the issue in the first place.

 

[peleuba]

Hey Paul!
Regarding your last sentence: Given the number of Escape trailers that have been built, it is conceivable that somewhere there are two trailers wired exactly the same. Who knows!

Touche.

Yes - I would agree. I am actually quoting the after sales support rep - Pat Johnson - who was helping me a few weeks back. He retired while helping me... It was sort of weird. I was speaking to him several times one week, then the next he was gone. I was told he retired.

 

[peleuba]

The risk is obviously someone who doesnt realize a blown fuse would disable the breakaway. Avoiding the fuse altogether (by using an auto-reser breaker) prevents the issue in the first place.

Yes, definitely. But these auto-reset breakers are not without problems, too. The inexpensive ones, like Escape uses, when tested, sometimes don't interrupt the circuit at the appropriate time and/or corrode quickly. YouTube demonstrates this.

Also, these are not fool proof devices... The thing is, if there is a fault on the circuit that causes the breaker to activate, unless that fault is mitigated, it will keep breaking the circuit. So you'll not have any break-away functionality.

In my mind, Blue Sea Systems make decent ones that I've never seen fail when tested.

 

[Centex]

... The thing is, if there is a fault on the circuit that causes the breaker to activate, unless that fault is mitigated, it will keep breaking the circuit. So you'll not have any break-away functionality.....

One of the reasons one should do a 'pull-the-pin test' on the breakaway brakes regularly. In an actual breakaway situation (heaven forbid!) the brakes only need to activate for a very short duration to serve the intended purpose.

 

[peleuba]

What gage wire goes to the 20 amp breaker? Ron

Ron,

I need to correct something I wrote earlier... You asked what size (gauge) wired was going to the mystery 20A circuit breaker in the AC side of my load center. A few days back, I reflexively replied that its 12AWG. I was wrong. I got into this last night, and lo and behold, its 14AWG wire going to the 20A breaker!

As you know this is dangerous as the the circuit breaker is rated for higher current then the wire can safely support. To mitigate, I swapped in a new 15A breaker and removed the 20A. I could not believe this when I saw it. I understand and forgive mislabeling circuit breakers in a panel, but connecting the wrong size wire to a circuit breaker is, potentially, dangerous.

I still have not determined what this wire/breaker does. In my E19, it disappears behind the bath on its way toward the fridge area. I am guessing its the receptacle for the typical 3-way refrigerator. I ordered the 12V compressor model so its unused.

Another annoying thing I found out is that my microwave is on the same circuit as three of the GFI receptacles. I thought that the MW was to be on a dedicated wire/breaker by itself and not wired in series with the other receptacles.

 

[Ron in BC]

Ron,

, but connecting the wrong size wire to a circuit breaker is, potentially, dangerous.

And contravenes any code that I know of

I still have not determined what this wire/breaker does. In my E19, it disappears behind the bath on its way toward the fridge area. I am guessing its the receptacle for the typical 3-way refrigerator. I ordered the 12V compressor model so its unused.

On the 3-way fridge the receptacle is just inside the lower exterior vent. For them to have installed a receptacle in that location without the exterior vent would be a little different. If that's what they did you'd think the difference would have triggered a second look at what the worksheet said.
If that's the case.

I thought that the MW was to be on a dedicated wire/breaker by itself and not wired in series with the other receptacles.

Absolutely, one MW and a toaster etc. and the breaker trips. Should be on its' own circuit.

In the cabinet under the fridge there's a compartment. Typically the back wall doesn't extend right up to the shelf that the fridge sits on. There's a gap of a couple of inches. If you have the same situation you might be able to do what I've done in the past. Shine a flashlight into the space and use a mirror to see what's there. If you see the mystery wire coming in and then going up through the fridge shelf then I think you'll have your answer.

If you can you might take a photo showing the 14ga. wire going to a 20 amp breaker and send the photo to ETI. Might be a one time mistake but they should be aware of it.

Good luck

Ron

 

[Centex]

.... Another annoying thing I found out is that my microwave is on the same circuit as three of the GFI receptacles. I thought that the MW was to be on a dedicated wire/breaker by itself and not wired in series with the other receptacles.

Distinct from 'hard-wired' / 'permanently installed' appliances, NEC/NFPA-70 2020 currently adopted by most jurisdictions does not address plug-in / countertop microwaves specifically.

IIRC NEC 2020 does call for 20A breaker / 12AWG wire / GFCI protection on kitchen branch circuits with multiple 15A receptacles.

When the kitchen has a nook or cabinet space (sometimes called an appliance 'garage') designed for a microwave, toaster oven, etc. many electricians consider it 'best practice' ('above code') to run dedicated circuits to the receptacles' in those locations in new construction.
____________

Aside from these ampacity considerations, the very latest NEC (2023, not yet adopted as 'code' in many jurisdictions) has significant new requirements for GFCI/AFCI breakers (ILO GFCI receptacles) for new construction. There's a fair amount of chatter on the interweb about those AFCI/GFCI breakers being problematic (claims of 'false' trips with certain appliances / loads).

I've installed 20A (w/12AWG wire) Eaton brand AFCI/GFCI combination breakers for my Escape's branches with multiple 15A receptacles, eliminating individual GFCI receptacles. So far those have not been a problem (no untoward trips with anything I've plugged into them).

 

[peleuba]

IIRC NEC 2020 does call for 20A breaker / 12AWG wire / GFCI protection on kitchen circuits with multiple 15A shared outlets.

Right. My trailer (and I expect most others) is wired with a 15A breaker and 14AWG Romex to the MW and the GFI's. I would have to run new Romex to separate these out.

I've installed 20A (w/12AWG wire) Eaton AFCI/GFCI combination breakers for my Escape's 15A receptacle branches, eliminating individual GFCI receptacles. So far those have not been a problem (no untoward trips with anything I've plugged into them).

How difficult was it to run new Romex to the termination points?

Thanks.

 

[Centex]

How difficult was it to run new Romex to the termination points?

I ordered my 5.0 without any 'extra' receptacles and specified deletion of exterior receptacles (in fact no electrical / air conditioning / solar options at all), knowing I was going to install a completely new 'custom' electrical system including the mini-split AC. No denying that was a major undertaking (but a satisfying and worthwhile project for me, YMMV).

I really don't know how all of the 120V Romex is routed in various trailer models with the 'typical options' ..... so had rather not speculate on the effort of that upgrade alone. The first step toward considering the project is to physically trace the end-to-end route of those wires, and that requires removal of some of the lower-cabinet inside back-panels to access the spaces around the wheel-wells, just for starters .

 

[peleuba]

I really don't know how all of the 120V Romex is routed in various trailer models with the 'typical options' ..... so had rather not speculate on the effort of that upgrade alone. The first step toward considering the project is to physically trace the end-to-end route of those wires, and that requires removal of some of the lower-cabinet inside back-panels to access the spaces around the wheel-wells, just for starters .

My question was not necessarily about my camper, rather, I was interested in understanding the type of effort you undertook to run new Romex. I am sure it was a considerable undertaking.