19 or 21???

[Mike Lewis]

I found that my fresh water tank lasts about a week. This is while traveling alone, showering daily, and using the trailer's bathroom and not the campground facilities. It is no big deal to replenish the fresh water with a five-gallon can; my constraint is the gray water tank, which lasts about 8-9 days max. Then I have to go find a dump station.

Correction: The above is true when showering every other day, not daily. I've already forgotten my trailer habits. Time to take another trip.

 

[thoer]

I forgot to mention some really important info to be gleaned from the spreadsheet. We talk a lot here about not exceeding tow vehicle weight capacity, but our trailers all have a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: 3500# for a 17; 4000# for a 19; and 4500# for a 21; and a lot of the real world weights are getting very close to those max ratings - in the case of one 19 it is even over. The large range of tongue weigh is informative too.

Not overloading (and how we balance loads in) our trailers is something to consider as we all load up on those fun devices and mods that we all love to take along.

 

[Iowa Dave]

Trailer weights

Good Morning Eric,
One thing we try to stay conscious about is when we make a trailer change, is to ask ourselves " did we make this thing heavier or lighter"? Usually the answer is heavier. When I get set up this spring, I'm gonna go see my girlfriend at the quarry. She said she would weigh our rig for free when they were not busy. This will give me a new 2016 baseline. Might have to change AZJack's "on the road vehicle weight" label inside the door frame. Up or down, who knows?
Dave

 

[skiman-ESC]

I forgot to mention some really important info to be gleaned from the spreadsheet. We talk a lot here about not exceeding tow vehicle weight capacity, but our trailers all have a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: 3500# for a 17; 4000# for a 19; and 4500# for a 21; and a lot of the real world weights are getting very close to those max ratings - in the case of one 19 it is even over. The large range of tongue weigh is informative too.

Not overloading (and how we balance loads in) our trailers is something to consider as we all load up on those fun devices and mods that we all love to take along.

The tonque weight on our 21' is something to pay close attention to, especially with a bikes on the back. I am trying to keep heavy things in the front and light things in the back. So far, so good handling wise. A WDH and sway control and a Silverado towing of course helps. Being close to GVW concerns me, since I am a big fan of safety factors

 

[vermilye]

Good Morning Eric,
One thing we try to stay conscious about is when we make a trailer change, is to ask ourselves " did we make this thing heavier or lighter"? Usually the answer is heavier. When I get set up this spring, I'm gonna go see my girlfriend at the quarry. She said she would weigh our rig for free when they were not busy. This will give me a new 2016 baseline. Might have to change AZJack's "on the road vehicle weight" label inside the door frame. Up or down, who knows?
Dave

Boy is that true! I weigh my trailer before every trip, both tongue & axle, and with a few short trip exceptions, each year it gets a bit heavier. I'll have to stop soon since I'm getting close to the trailer maximum. It doesn't help that I'm usually packing for 5-6 months on the road...

 

[thoer]

So, Jon, apparently as our trailers age they mirror what seems to happen to our own weights as we age....

 

[Ron in BC]

Boy is that true! I weigh my trailer before every trip, both tongue & axle,

Man, reading this thread is making me nervous. I've never weighed my tongue weight or trailer. I take what I take and all I know I've got lots of miles under sometimes difficult conditions and the trailer tows and handles well. Whatever makes you comfortable I guess.

Ron

 

[thoer]

Ron, some things that Reace has done on all the designs is distribute weigh well and makes sure they tend more toward heavy (rather than too light) on tongue weight thus leading to trailers that tow well even when not optimally loaded.

For comparison, we used to have a 16' Scamp Side Dinette Deluxe. Compared to a 17B, the axles on a 16' Scamp are much closer to the center, making it inherently more prone to sway. That was combined with the fact that the design of the side dinette puts nearly everything heavy on one side of the trailer. With the little C rated 13" tires ours came with I'm sure that there were times that the heavy side was over the weight rating of those little tires.

(Edit: I went back and looked and tongue weights of 19' Escapes on Jon's spreadsheet and some of them are light on tongue weight while all the 17's and 21's are not, so maybe I am over generalizing ......)

 

[Jim Bennett]

Man, reading this thread is making me nervous. I've never weighed my tongue weight or trailer. I take what I take and all I know I've got lots of miles under sometimes difficult conditions and the trailer tows and handles well. Whatever makes you comfortable I guess.

Ron

I never weighed my 19 in the 6+ years I had it, other than the tongue once.

When I cleaned all of gear out of it, I was actually surprised how little we had. No way there was even 200 lbs. If course, this did not include bikes, propane, or liquid from the tanks.

 

[thoer]

Most of the extra weight in our 17B is all the homegrown food Mary brings along. I keep saying that there are groceries stores everywhere, but I usually loose on that one.

 

[Brian B-P]

One caution about the data in which Frederick collected and Jon has been managing: tongue weights for trailers used with weigh-distribution (WD) systems are likely wrong. To avoid the need to for multiple weighing steps or any weighing of the tow vehicle, Frederick's method was to get the owner to disconnect the WD, then note the resulting coupler height and measure the axle loads, then later to measure the tongue weight (at the campsite) with coupler at that same height. The result is a correct total, but because the tongue will likely be lower than it is while towing, the distribution between tongue and axles which will not match the distribution while towing: tandem-axle trailers will likely have higher tongue weight in actual use, while single-axle trailers will likely have lower tongue weight in actual use.

Since the 19' and 21' both have tandem axles, any tongue weight values collected by Frederick are likely low for them. Many of the more recent values in the list were collected by the owners using various methods, so they may not have this systematic error, and may have other errors.

None of this changes the fact that the list has valuable information, mostly about the total weight of trailers and their cargo in the state that they are typically used.

 

[thoer]

... tandem-axle trailers will likely have higher tongue weight in actual use, while single-axle trailers will likely have lower tongue weight in actual use.

Brian, my brain may be slow today, I think I understand what you are saying and can visualize it being lower for the single axle, but not why tandem axles would then be heavier?

 

[Brian B-P]

I think I understand what you are saying and can visualize it being lower for the single axle, but now why a tandem axles would then be heavier?

This really isn't obvious - especially since it is opposite from single-axle trailers - so many people are not aware of the issue. If you lower the tongue, the leading axle's suspension must be more compressed (the frame at the leading axle must be lower) while the trailing axle's suspension is less compressed (the frame at the leading axle must be higher) to accommodate the slight nose-down tilt of the trailer. That means the leading axle will carry more load and the trailing axle less. Trailer suspensions are so stiff (they move very little compared to a typical car for the same change in weight) that these small movements make a big difference, and the net result is that the when the tongue drops the trailer's weight is supported more on the leading axle and less on the other axle... and less on the tongue.

Frederick measured this lower tongue load, so actual as-towed values for these WDH-equipped tandems will be higher.

The effect is so strong that I have seen unattached and empty tandem-axle cargo trailers sit with no support under the tongue, and the tongue barely brushing the ground. I dropped off a U-Haul (6'x12' enclosed cargo) once after a rental, and after I unhooked it and drove away, the trailer rolled across the lot - there is no tongue jack on these, so there was no way to hold the tongue up at the normal height., and the lot sloped a bit downhill in the direction the trailer was pointed. Of course you wouldn't do this with your Escape!

 

[Ray N]

How well do you like each other and think you can manage in close quarters for any length of time? My husband and I took one look at the 19 and realized it was too small for us. We're not as skinny as we used to be (only in our dreams) and it was just too cozy for us.

Others can manage just fine, but it wasn't for us. To me that's the main criteria.

Also, since you're in Chilliwack, you're really close to the factory, so you can try both on for size. Pretend like you're camping in it and move around and see how it works for ya.

Yup, same with us. Although we aren't overweight, my wife didn't like the tightness of the central area of the 19. I do think it's layout is better, but the openness of the 21' won out.

 

[Donna D.]

Frederick's method was to get the owner to disconnect the WD, then note the resulting coupler height and measure the axle loads, then later to measure the tongue weight (at the campsite) with coupler at that same height.

Ah no. I watched Frederick do his magic at the Oregon Gathering. He measured the tongue height, then had owners disconnect any WDH. Not so surprisingly there were more on Casitas than any other brand.

 

[Brian B-P]

Ah no. I watched Frederick do his magic at the Oregon Gathering. He measured the tongue height, then had owners disconnect any WDH.

I don't think that's what he said in FiberglassRV, but maybe his method changed or I just misunderstood.

Regardless, this method (measuring the axle load with the tongue at one height, and the tongue weight with the tongue at a different height) will get the right tongue weight but the wrong total weight, because the distribution between tongue and axle will change, so adding one to the other won't give the correct total. In the case of a tandem, the total will be too high (or too low in the case of a single axle).

... then had owners disconnect any WDH. Not so surprisingly there were more on Casitas than any other brand.

Yes, among single-axle trailers the Casita 17' is unusually proportioned and so unusually front-heavy, driving owners to use WD. The Escape 17' is similarly proportioned, but Reace placed the battery (or batteries) at the rear to keep the tongue weight proportional more reasonable.

 

[thoer]

...Regardless, this method (measuring the axle load with the tongue at one height, and the tongue weight with the tongue at a different height) ...

Isn't Donna saying that Frederick was using a method of measuring each with the tongue at the same height?

 

[Jim Bennett]

Holy Bat Crap! Methinks we are splitting hairs here.

If the tongue weight is weighed detached at the same height it is while towing, you will get an accurate tongue weight. This is the actual weight, and if using a WDH of course the effective weight will be different as it is dispersed forward and back from the hitch.

Even if it is not exactly the same height when weighed as when under tow, the difference of an inch or two of tongue height will make only a very small difference in weight. It is not like the axles are rigid. If the tongue is a bit higher when weighed that when towing, sure it will add more force downward on the rear axle, but that effective distance will be less than 10% of the difference in hitch height. Both axles will flex, allowing the distribution of this small weight difference to come close to evening out.

What I am trying to say in this mumble jumble of text, is that the actual weight difference on each axle and the tongue calculated the way Frederick did it will be very, very close in accuracy, so close that any effective error will be insignificant.

 

[Brian B-P]

Yes, I'm talking about small effects on the total weight measurement, but some people seem to assign great importance to this data as "real weights". The effect of height on tongue weight is more significant, and for some people's tugs the hitch weight limit is important.

If you are curious, just measure your tongue weight at a few heights. If, like some members, you have never weighed your trailer, you likely won't bother doing this - that's certainly your choice.

 

[Brian B-P]

Isn't Donna saying that Frederick was using a method of measuring each with the tongue at the same height?

No, Donna has described a method in which the tongue weight is measured at towing height and the axle weight is measured with the tongue drooping down because the WD system is disconnected. Since most people take a few hundred pounds off the tug's rear suspension with the WD, this can be a significant drop.